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Worst antagonists in fiction

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1 Worst antagonists in fiction on Mon Apr 13, 2015 6:21 pm

think of this as a companion to ZGoten's favorite villain's forum only we describe our dislike to other villains. I have this problem explaining my points sometimes because I'm afraid of spoiling stuff. I can't just say how terrifying a monster like Clockwerk is or how funny Dr.Fetus is. You have to see it for yourself. However I'm perfectly with talking about villains I hate because screw them.

Spoiler:

Oggie Boggie(Nightmare Before Christmas):
Now before you go in a rant, I don't hate Oggie. He's a fun villain with the kind of dark humor I like. The problem is that he has nothing to do with the story. You could write him out and lose nothing. At least he did something in Kingdom Hearts

Neyla(Sly 2: Band of Thieves):

This is just me, but I found Neyla to be bland. This suppose to be this scheming little witch, playing everyone to get what she want's, but all I see is someone who's just doing whatever she feels like. I just don't care about this villain or her goals(if there are any at all). All the other series had a motive and/or backstory to why they do the things they do, but Neyla has nothing.

Eggman Nega(Sonic Rush)
What a lazy character and design. He's suppose to be this parallel Eggman like Blaze is to Sonic, but I have no real idea what he's suppose to be except a more 'insane'(more like stupid) version of Eggman but I have no idea. He has very little personilty and charm. The sad thing is that in the sequeal, they actually have the perfect parallel Egman.

And finally for now
Queen Chrysalis(My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic)
I often say "Canterlot Wedding" is my most hated episode and the bug queen is one of the biggest reasons why. Not only does she hog the focus on an episode that should be about a sister and brother reconnecting, but everything she does leaves me with questions. How is she inside the shield if her army's outside? How can she beat a sun god? Why not kill the bride or take her instead since she feeds on love? How is invading gonna give you love to feed on? Would stealth operations be better. And why is she not paying attention when the heroes are saving the day right behind her. I really hate her and was one of the biggest reasons I stopped watching this show.

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2 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:01 pm

Sasuke and Obito from Naruto. Madara and Kabuto were a sufficient main bad guys, but crappy writing killed their character.

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3 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:11 pm

The worst villain I have ever come across has got to be Kaguya from Naruto. Just in case, I'm gonna put this into spoiler tags.

Spoiler:
She just shows up out of nowhere for the final 10 chapters of the manga, with next to no build-up, and we're supposed to believe that this lack of a personality is the one behind everything. And then she's defeated. This is writing of the laziest degree and just one of many examples of why Naruto was ultimately such a terrible series, even though it started out really good. It got progressively worse with literally every new story arc and Kaguya is just the tip of the iceberg.

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4 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:39 pm

ZGoten wrote:The worst villain I have ever come across has got to be Kaguya from Naruto. Just in case, I'm gonna put this into spoiler tags.

Spoiler:
She just shows up out of nowhere for the final 10 chapters of the manga, with next to no build-up, and we're supposed to believe that this lack of a personality is the one behind everything. And then she's defeated. This is writing of the laziest degree and just one of many examples of why Naruto was ultimately such a terrible series, even though it started out really good. It got progressively worse with literally every new story arc and Kaguya is just the tip of the iceberg.

I didn't include her because she's more of a walking plot hole than a villain.

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5 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Mon Apr 13, 2015 8:07 pm

TheSterlingZ wrote:
ZGoten wrote:The worst villain I have ever come across has got to be Kaguya from Naruto. Just in case, I'm gonna put this into spoiler tags.

Spoiler:
She just shows up out of nowhere for the final 10 chapters of the manga, with next to no build-up, and we're supposed to believe that this lack of a personality is the one behind everything. And then she's defeated. This is writing of the laziest degree and just one of many examples of why Naruto was ultimately such a terrible series, even though it started out really good. It got progressively worse with literally every new story arc and Kaguya is just the tip of the iceberg.

I didn't include her because she's more of a walking plot hole than a villain.

Which makes her even worse. :/

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6 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:01 pm

How has Kai Leng not been mentioned yet? Because... well, it's basically required at this point!

Hmm... let's see...

Sugou and Death Gun from Sword Art Online are my first picks. Nothing more than a creepy, perverted sicko and a Darth Vader wannabe.

Strega from Persona 3. I got what they were trying to do with them - that is, make them sympathetic, but they failed, I think. I couldn't care less about them and they were just an annoying nuisance that dragged down the game whenever they showed up.

Vigoro from Skies of Arcadia. I love the game to death, but... no. Just no. He was unnecessary. Really unnecessary. Rape is not funny, nor is Vigoro.

Unalaq from The Legend of Korra pales in comparison to the other villains in the show. He's not necessarily as bad as the others I mentioned, but he just wasn't nearly as interesting, nor did he even have an understandable motive like the rest. Just power-hungry. He's one of the reasons why the second season is widely considered to be the weakest, I think.

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7 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:50 pm

So... when you say "worst antagonist," do you mean "best antagonist?" Or do you mean "best villain?" Because a villain and an antagonist can be two very different things, and fiction is overflowing with terrible... everythings.

Assuming you mean "best antagonist..."

...I give all 1000 of my votes to Marcello from Dragon Quest VIII. Why? Because he actually has the moral high ground. Why?
Spoilers:
[spoilers]The basic premise of DQ8 is that the King's ineptitude allows his kingdom to be cursed, and so you set out on a journey to break the curse. The first city you reach is forced to endure a state of perpetual mourning because its King's wife died a long while back and he couldn't get over it--effectively destroying the town's economy and generally ruining the lives of its citizenry. And that king? He's the -least- terrible example of royalty screwing over the common folk and generally being evil and dickish. If DQ8 has a running them, it's that the nobility pretty much suck and ruin things for regular folk. So then Marcello pops up, takes over the Church, and starts a bloodless revolution to replace the monarchies with a more just form of government (ostensibly)... but then the game has him be randomly possessed by the Big Bad, so you end up defeating Marcello (restoring the inept and malicious monarchies) which undermines that theme enormously... and then there's the secret ending where it's revealed that the player character, who is a perfect example of a normal, everyday person saving the day (he's a castle guard) is secretly a prince. A dragon prince, of all things.[/spoilers]

In short, DQVIII goes way, way, way out of its way to undermine its strongest themes. It's really ****ing irritating.

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8 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:11 pm

All of the examples I could come up with are either already mentioned above or have suddenly decided to slip my mind.

Hmm... I think I got one. Fire Emblem 9 and 10 spoilers:

Spoiler:
There is this guy who gets introduced simply as 'Black Knight'.

all of the relevant facts I can remember off the top of my head:
A calm, collected (almost to the point of coming across as slow or half-asleep) officer of the invading kingdom's army, commanding authority and fear kind of reminiscent of Darth Vader among the both the common troops and every other officer shown.

While VA's voice, word choice of both himself and others around him and the visual design in general suggest that Black Knight is male, until a certain point of quite a ways into the second game, there is no real indication he actually is a man. Or human for that matter. King Ashnard has shown to make use of individuals of regardless of origin or gender in his inner circle if he deemed them to be kickass enough and Black Knight himself has demonstrated a number of (seemingly) supernatural abilities.

Their job is listed as 'Black Knight' as well. He is a solid concrete wall of stats that runs over everything that gets within his reach like a freight train, which your party has to avoid or outright escape from in both gameplay and story a number of times.

So far, so good, right?

First time we get a closer glimpse at his character shortly after Ike (the main player character) catches his father, Greil, having something of a staring contest with this Black Knight character during one of the retreating battles they got embroiled in; Ike has trouble sleeping that night and thus witnesses Greil walking out of the party's camp after dark; after following him for some distance, Ike sees him meeting the Black Knight in a remote clearing one-on-one.

A vicious fight ensues. Black Knight, while intially more or less following the usual etiquette of a brutal duel to the death that you've probably seen in a number of stories across multiple media - he relays a desire to test his skill against the experienced combatant he seems to know personally and offers Greil some special sword the man apparently wielded a number of years before this, claiming it would offer him better chances in the fight - but restraint leaves him quickly after the start; Greil doesn't make use of the sword and the fight is over in two quick exchanges, with Greil down on the ground, grievously wounded and unable to stand anymore.

Black Knight throws a couple of phrases as an aside, idly musing if Griel got so much out of shape since the last time the two met or if he just imporved his own prowess so greatly that their match was so unsatisfying. After that he snaps out of his reverie and remembers that he actually came here for another reason entirely; apparently Greil is supposed to know where to find an artefact Black Knight needs to get a hold of and now that he is halfway in the grave already, the mission might just be a failure. Black Knight decides to make use of Ike who is still hanging around, subdues him, drags him in front of Greil and threatens the man to gut his own son in front of him to get the desired information.

At this point, reinforcements the player's party was waiting for arrive. Someone among them spooks Black Knight enough to drop everything he was doing right away and retreat via teleport, dropping some comment along the lines of 'now's not the time for me to face that one'. Ike drags his father back into the camp. Greil does not survive the night.

Sometime later, Ike confronts Black Knight. Because of his diligent training, he is not quite as helpless as he was on that night, but there is a new unpleasant discovery: hits that reach Black Knight deal no visible damage at all. Black Knight claims that this happens because his armor was blessed by the Goddess and can be pierced only by that special blade he offered Greil back then. He then tells Ike that, because of Ike's training under his father, he is of interest to Black Knight and thus will be slaughtered the next time they meet unless he manages to best Black Knight in single combat.

Along the way, Ike discovers witness accounts that point to likely reasons of Greil's quick loss and insistence on not using the offered sword. Apparently, Greil had come in contact with the artefact Black Knight was searching for before; a single unshielded touch caused him to become enraged so much that he started killing everything that moved. His excllent physical shape, supreme skill and blind rage made him unstoppable to everyone close enough to intervene. His beloved wife, seeing no other way to prevent extermination of everybody in the town - including both of their children - threw herself directly in Greil's path. Her death has managed to shock him enough to regain his wits. In horror and disgust, Greil threw away his sword (which happened to be the above-mentioned speical sword), permanently crippled his sword arm and hired the most effective killer he could find to keep eye on him and put him down in case he went mad again.

Black Knight, while claiming to know Greil extensively for a long time and expounding about mastery of the sword and such, if his dialogue is any indication, had somehow missed the man not being able to bend one of his limbs at all.

I don't have anything of substance to nitpick in any of the above. However, how the games handle the rest of this plotline is, IMHO, extremely self-contradicting.

From the very beginning of the first game the idea of cooperation, of utilizing tactics to make the best use of your limited strength and numbers, is pounded into the player relentlessly in both gameplay and story. All other characters in the party thoroughly explain to Ike exactly how and why it would be a bad idea to run off to fight the man who killed his father on his own as well.

And yet that 'blessing of the Goddess' screws everything up. It is basically a hard-coded godmode that prevents Black Knight from taking damage from any source other than the special sword (which you can't give to any other character either). It also helps Ike to persuade his closest comrades in arms to allow him to fight in what seems like a suicidal scenario on his own with a lame speech about how he must do this himself. The boss battle itself is optional, but doing the sensible thing and retreating is actively punished by denying the player a unit with a very useful hidden perk, namely, the ability to pierce the 'blessing of the Goddess' as well, which - surprise, surprise! - the final boss also has.

It is even more egregious in the second game: Black Knight is discovered to be still alive, but without his nifty invulnerability, the characters are aware of it, but still allow him to draw Ike away inside a protective force field that cuts them off while some bunch of nameless losers and a sub-boss no one in the party knows or has a grudge against appear out of nowhere and try to kill them for no reason. All the while all other members of the small mercenary band Greil led - each with a deeply personal bond with the late commander - could be standing right there, with all their grief, pain and hatred still unresolved.

The narrative treats all this as an honorable, sporting competition of skill to the death, with Ike asking his opponent if he compares to how his father was at his peak with flowery language and all that. Instead of one side being a crazy bloodthirsty bastard with obession problems and the other a bunch of professional killers extremely motivated to gang up on the former and ground him into fine paste.

Sure, there are genre and series conventions that need to be followed, yes, but, IMHO, the way this plotline was chosen to be developed breaks immersion and seems to run against the themes of the rest of these two games.  

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9 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Wed Apr 15, 2015 8:23 pm

I've been thinking about this one for a while, artificially limiting myself to primary or main antagonist rather than just any antagonist (in which case Kai Leng would win by a damned mile). But for one of the worst, most disappointing, pathetic main antagonists evah I will have to go with...

.....*artificial delay for suspense*........

...Alduin. I really don't even feel like I need to explain this one. One of the aspects of Talos and devourer of the world aka entropy personified is an idiot who has, what, three sections of dialogue in the entire game? He starts off wiping out a town, then raises a dragon you promptly obliterate, then hides in the afterlife where you stomp him so hard I actually thought he was a Goomba for a second.


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10 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Sun May 10, 2015 2:44 pm

The Lorerunner wrote:...Alduin.  I really don't even feel like I need to explain this one.  One of the aspects of Talos and devourer of the world aka entropy personified is an idiot who has, what, three sections of dialogue in the entire game?  He starts off wiping out a town, then raises a dragon you promptly obliterate, then hides in the afterlife where you stomp him so hard I actually thought he was a Goomba for a second.

Yeah, would choose him too. I mean to be honest in my first Playtrough I totally forgot him till 150 hours later in the game and even than he was nothing more than any other "Boss" in any other sidequest of the game.

I mean there was nor urge, nothing in the World that said to me "You need to stop him or he will destroy the World".

Ok with Mods he gets Dragon Generals that spawn in the world and gets a looooot tougher, like he should have been, but in the original Game he is just a Joke.

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11 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Sun May 10, 2015 4:46 pm

I can't really think of any Villains I actively hate, unless we're talking about the star child, but i'm sure the writers consider him a sane and logical character. But the only other villain off the top of my head that I found a little off putting was Aizen from Bleach.

This guy is so OP it was kinda irritating, you know how in films like return of the jedi, the emperor or any other villain would reveal some unforeseen twist in their plan like the attack on the death star being a trap. Well for Aizen, imagine that moment but repeated several times throughout the anime.

Spoilers to the final battle:
If we only look at the final battle, there's
-the part where all the captains and arrancar work together to deceive/beat him
-the moment when Ichigo arrives with a surprise attack
-youroichi/Urahara/Isshin's surprise attack (at least they were expecting Aizen to survive)
-Gins betrayal
There's probably other parts but in all of these moments Aizen surpasses everyone due either to how absurdly smart he is or how absurdly powerful he's become, it just becomes ridiculous, especially when the thing that actually beats him is as simple as Ichigo going super saiyan.

This may be more a problem of anime drawing out battles for longer than they should be but it definitely worked to the detriment of Aizen's character.

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12 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Wed May 13, 2015 9:15 pm

Theodoricos wrote:
Strega from Persona 3. I got what they were trying to do with them - that is, make them sympathetic, but they failed, I think. I couldn't care less about them and they were just an annoying nuisance that dragged down the game whenever they showed up.

I'll see your Strega and raise you one Sho from Persona 4 Ultimax.
When I played P3, I felt I should congratulate Atlus for making a villain I hate more than Kai Leng.
When I got to Ultimax, I felt I should congratulate them for making a villain I hate more than Takaya.

Aside from his totally radical facial scar looking stupid and already having been used by another character, he's grating and unimaginably petulant. Not only was he supposed to be sympathetic, but the two (three?) heroes of the story just want to let him go, because he had a hard life.

Also, he was watching the P4 cast since the beginning. I've never felt more violated.

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13 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Thu May 14, 2015 1:20 am

The Lorerunner wrote:I've been thinking about this one for a while, artificially limiting myself to primary or main antagonist rather than just any antagonist (in which case Kai Leng would win by a damned mile).  But for one of the worst, most disappointing, pathetic main antagonists evah I will have to go with...

.....*artificial delay for suspense*........

...Alduin.  I really don't even feel like I need to explain this one.  One of the aspects of Talos and devourer of the world aka entropy personified is an idiot who has, what, three sections of dialogue in the entire game?  He starts off wiping out a town, then raises a dragon you promptly obliterate, then hides in the afterlife where you stomp him so hard I actually thought he was a Goomba for a second.

Alduin is a good one i also didn't care for the Archdemon in DA:O.

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14 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Thu May 14, 2015 7:30 am

A Dead Diehard wrote:I'll see your Strega and raise you one Sho from Persona 4 Ultimax.
When I played P3, I felt I should congratulate Atlus for making a villain I hate more than Kai Leng.
When I got to Ultimax, I felt I should congratulate them for making a villain I hate more than Takaya.

Aside from his totally radical facial scar looking stupid and already having been used by another character, he's grating and unimaginably petulant. Not only was he supposed to be sympathetic, but the two (three?) heroes of the story just want to let him go, because he had a hard life.

Also, he was watching the P4 cast since the beginning. I've never felt more violated.

Hah, I'm glad I didn't get Ultimax. Persona 4 Arena was enough for me since I felt like the writing took a big hit with that game alone, and from what I'm hearing about Ultimax (including your own thoughts), it most likely isn't much better.

Persona 4 Spoilers:
I'm also opposed to the idea of the Midnight Channel returning in general (and not just because it's a plot hole) or the Investigation Team reforming. I love Persona 4 to death and one of my favorite things about it was that its cast didn't need to have a mutual goal that they're working towards to stay together (unlike S.E.E.S.) and the story frankly felt complete. They deserve to resume their normal lives from now onward. I don't think that you-know-who can be topped as a villain either, as that was the perfect antagonist given the game's themes too.

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15 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Mon May 18, 2015 10:26 am

I'll throw my hat in the ring by saying WICKED from the Maze Runner series, and Cerberus from the Mass Effect series.

Spoilers for Maze Runners:
They're running kids through a maze that routinely kills them in order to test why they're immune to an artificial pandemic that they created (and then released because of a solar flare).  They never change how they conduct the 'experiment' ever.  At the end, they send the kids to a remote island, and then go back to running more tests on more kids in the damned maze.

Need I say anything about Cerberus.  Every time they run an experiment, everyone dies; except the two times (or three) where one or two people manage to escape.  Plus, they don't seem to know what the words 'safety' or 'precautions' means.  Whether they testing Rachni, trying to virtually talk to the Geth, or studying a supposedly dead Reapers, they don't do anything to try and protect themselves.

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16 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Mon May 25, 2015 12:20 am

Not gonna say too much due to spoilers so I'll just mention one source. Sword Art Online's from episodes 14 to end sucked.

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17 Re: Worst antagonists in fiction on Tue May 26, 2015 1:20 pm

=

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