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The Formation of the Echain Government

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126 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:34 pm

On the other hand, I disagree with the notion we should vote now for concrete proposals.

First of all, they are all too concrete to be general guidelines, yet too vague to actually provide a constitution.

Secondly, this gives more power to shorter, vaguer proposals, with which one is less likely to misunderstand anything, and dislike anything; i.e., in a more detailed proposal, one is more likely to find that one thing he doesnt want, and then votes for a systém which he doesnt like as much, but doesnt contain that one problematic thing.

As such, I propose we vote on the general characteristics of the systém, along the lines of:

Problém 1
1) Centralisation
2) Decentralisation

Problém 2
1) Monarchy
2) Republic

OOC: My phone always changes problem to problém, sorry guys.

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127 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:34 pm

I second this as well.

I must also state the importance of a central government as I stated before.

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128 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:35 pm

I do also submit that every gentleman here shall abide by the outcome of the current vote.

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129 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:36 pm

KarbinCry wrote:On the other hand, I disagree with the notion we should vote now for concrete proposals.

First of all, they are all too concrete to be general guidelines, yet too vague to actually provide a constitution.

Secondly, this gives more power to shorter, vaguer proposals, with which one is less likely to misunderstand anything, and dislike anything; i.e., in a more detailed proposal, one is more likely to find that one thing he doesnt want, and then votes for a systém which he doesnt like as much, but doesnt contain that one problematic thing.

As such, I propose we vote on the general characteristics of the systém, along the lines of:

Problém 1
1) Centralisation
2) Decentralisation

Problém 2
1) Monarchy
2) Republic

OOC: My phone always changes problem to problém, sorry guys.

I do be secondin' this

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130 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:37 pm

OOC: do we need lore to initiate the vote?

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131 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:38 pm

The Echain People's Army of National Liberation's proposes a compromise system of government based on a hybrid hopefully amenable to all.

1. A Constitutional Monarchy in which a monarch will act as a figurehead. This monarch will have the symbolic power of being able to dissolve the senate and trigger elections at any time if the masses demand it. The heir to the throne (current whereabouts unknown) shall be found and placed in this position but if he/she can't be found. A non-hereditary position to be known as the President, with the same powers will be created, with election by a simple majority of the town councils with each decided by voting through First Past The Post for a term of three (3) years with a three (3) term limit.

2. The federal government shall be a representative democracy which shall be comprised of the Senate. The members of this body will be elected until recalled by a simple majority by the town council they represent, and will meet to discuss and compromise on the consensus will of their constituents.

3. The local governments (Mayors and Governors) shall be a force separate from the federal government and will govern their own province this includes handling infrastructure and other local matters. These men and woman shall be voted for by the public in separate elections.

4. The military shall not act in any way on matters without the Senates affirmation and shall be sworn to the nation and not any single office or person to prevent this person from obtaining absolute power.

5. Independently drawn electorates, of roughly the size of a town or suburb will meet each week to discuss and decide the issues and various laws of the nation, with decisions made by consensus. At the end of each week's meeting a ballot will be taken to decide the delegate entrusted with presenting the group's consensus decision to the senate, and making whatever compromises they personally feel necessary for the spirit of the decision to pass.

5.a At any town council meeting after a minimum of six (6) months of a delegate's term is complete anyone may move to recall the senate delegate, passing with a simple majority. A new delegate is elected again with a simple majority.

6. The establishment of a judicial branch that has the power to critique laws and impeach Senators and the President if they have broken a law of our great nation.



Last edited by WhiskeyWhiskers on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:44 pm; edited 3 times in total

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132 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:38 pm

KarbinCry wrote:On the other hand, I disagree with the notion we should vote now for concrete proposals.

First of all, they are all too concrete to be general guidelines, yet too vague to actually provide a constitution.

Secondly, this gives more power to shorter, vaguer proposals, with which one is less likely to misunderstand anything, and dislike anything; i.e., in a more detailed proposal, one is more likely to find that one thing he doesnt want, and then votes for a systém which he doesnt like as much, but doesnt contain that one problematic thing.

As such, I propose we vote on the general characteristics of the systém, along the lines of:

Problém 1
1) Centralisation
2) Decentralisation

Problém 2
1) Monarchy
2) Republic

OOC: My phone always changes problem to problém, sorry guys.




I would submit that we can not carry on like this and there must be a vote soon or else we will never get anywhere.

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133 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:38 pm

grifenknight wrote:OOC: do we need lore to initiate the vote?

OOC: Yeah, I believe so. But I'll go ask in the Q&A section.

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134 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:39 pm

grifenknight wrote:OOC: do we need lore to initiate the vote?

OOC I dont think so, we can post new threads and add polls. However, I dont want to start one when we dont know if we vote for concrete proposals or first our priorities.

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135 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:40 pm

KarbinCry wrote:
grifenknight wrote:OOC: do we need lore to initiate the vote?

OOC I dont think so, we can post new threads and add polls. However, I dont want to start one when we dont know if we vote for concrete proposals or first our priorities.


We should vote on our proposed proposals nothing more and nothing less.

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136 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:41 pm

I would just like to state that the only centralized government is bradley2000's.
Again, I cannot state anymore the importance of a centralized government like I said previously. Don't forget that while we may be culturally diverse, every man, women, District and island has an equal voice in our government.

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137 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:41 pm

bradley2000 wrote:
KarbinCry wrote:On the other hand, I disagree with the notion we should vote now for concrete proposals.

First of all, they are all too concrete to be general guidelines, yet too vague to actually provide a constitution.

Secondly, this gives more power to shorter, vaguer proposals, with which one is less likely to misunderstand anything, and dislike anything; i.e., in a more detailed proposal, one is more likely to find that one thing he doesnt want, and then votes for a systém which he doesnt like as much, but doesnt contain that one problematic thing.

As such, I propose we vote on the general characteristics of the systém, along the lines of:

Problém 1
1) Centralisation
2) Decentralisation

Problém 2
1) Monarchy
2) Republic

OOC: My phone always changes problem to problém, sorry guys.




I would submit that we can not carry on like this and there must be a vote soon or else we will never get anywhere.

I second the gentleman. We must adopt one of the three constitutional documents. We have the power to work out of these constitutions, as there are no limiting factors that prohibit the senate from amending each of these constitutions. Additionally, we can make political parties that advance either federalism or anti-federalism; in this way, both ideologies will be represented in the government, and we can let the free market of ideas dictate which ideology reigns.

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138 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:42 pm

bradley2000 wrote:
I would submit that we can not carry on like this and there must be a vote soon or else we will never get anywhere.

This do be why we need to vote for republic or monarchy and centralized or decentralized. So is this in support of the proposal or not?

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139 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:46 pm

MegaZeroX wrote:
bradley2000 wrote:
I would submit that we can not carry on like this and there must be a vote soon or else we will never get anywhere.

This do be why we need to vote for republic or monarchy and centralized or decentralized. So is this in support of the proposal or not?


We will be voting on three proposals.

1. mine which involves a Central government with a Constitutional monarchy combined with a Representative Democracy.

2. WhiskeyWhiskers which is more decentralised.


3. KarbinCry which proposes a Federation.


When ALL members have completed their amendments I shall present them all and the chair will then decide weather or not to call a vote.


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140 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:47 pm

bingcrosby7 wrote:I second the gentleman. We must adopt one of the three constitutional documents. We have the power to work out of these constitutions, as there are no limiting factors that prohibit the senate from amending each of these constitutions. Additionally, we can make political parties that advance either federalism or anti-federalism; in this way, both ideologies will be represented in the government, and we can let the free market of ideas dictate which ideology reigns.

Changing the constitution is hard, or should. That is why we cannot rush it, and why I think we should go step by step, instead of one person writing something, and everyone then voting on them, consitution should be a collaborative effort.

Alternatively, if we wont vote on each incremental step, as I outlined, we can vote for a comite that will then forge the contitution themselves. This way, all views can be represented.

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141 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:48 pm

bingcrosby7 wrote:

I second the gentleman. We must adopt one of the three constitutional documents. We have the power to work out of these constitutions, as there are no limiting factors that prohibit the senate from amending each of these constitutions. Additionally, we can make political parties that advance either federalism or anti-federalism; in this way, both ideologies will be represented in the government, and we can let the free market of ideas dictate which ideology reigns.

I do think we need to be 'avin a direction going when making a const'ution. So far I do only see one const'ution so far and that do be KarbinCry's. The other proposals be simply guidelines. We need a direction first. We be in no hurry. We do be 'avin' the ability to have the process carry on for a few days.

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142 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:48 pm

KarbinCry wrote:
bingcrosby7 wrote:I second the gentleman. We must adopt one of the three constitutional documents. We have the power to work out of these constitutions, as there are no limiting factors that prohibit the senate from amending each of these constitutions. Additionally, we can make political parties that advance either federalism or anti-federalism; in this way, both ideologies will be represented in the government, and we can let the free market of ideas dictate which ideology reigns.

Changing the constitution is hard, or should. That is why we cannot rush it, and why I think we should go step by step, instead of one person writing something, and everyone then voting on them, consitution should be a collaborative effort.

Alternatively, if we wont vote on each incremental step, as I outlined, we can vote for a comite that will then forge the contitution themselves. This way, all views can be represented.


OOC If we end up voting on EVERYTHING in the Constiution we will never get past the starting block.

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143 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:49 pm

Yeah, I think I'd prefer an issue, by issue vote.

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144 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:50 pm

bradley2000 wrote:
OOC If we end up voting on EVERYTHING in the Constiution we will never get past the starting block.

OOC: We just need to decide on the kind of constitution we will have. From there, it should be a fast process. This is just the most important part so we should get this done right.

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145 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:51 pm

KarbinCry,

I agree that a constitution should be difficult to amend; that said, if I’m not mistaken, each iteration of the three constitutions do not explicitly discuss in great detail the process of drafting and implementing new amendments. As it currently stands, each of the constitutions discuss the division and implementation of power. Depending on where we place our power, we will then be able to more specifically define the fine print of individual laws and individual constitutional amendments.

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146 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:52 pm

bingcrosby7 wrote:KarbinCry,

I agree that a constitution should be difficult to amend; that said, if I’m not mistaken, each iteration of the three constitutions do not explicitly discuss in great detail the process of drafting and implementing new amendments. As it currently stands, each of the constitutions discuss the division and implementation of power. Depending on where we place our power, we will then be able to more specifically define the fine print of individual laws and individual constitutional amendments.  


I second this.

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147 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:52 pm

bradley2000 wrote:
KarbinCry wrote:
bingcrosby7 wrote:I second the gentleman. We must adopt one of the three constitutional documents. We have the power to work out of these constitutions, as there are no limiting factors that prohibit the senate from amending each of these constitutions. Additionally, we can make political parties that advance either federalism or anti-federalism; in this way, both ideologies will be represented in the government, and we can let the free market of ideas dictate which ideology reigns.

Changing the constitution is hard, or should. That is why we cannot rush it, and why I think we should go step by step, instead of one person writing something, and everyone then voting on them, consitution should be a collaborative effort.

Alternatively, if we wont vote on each incremental step, as I outlined, we can vote for a comite that will then forge the contitution themselves. This way, all views can be represented.


OOC If we end up voting on EVERYTHING in the Constiution we will never get past the starting block.

OOC: While I dont share your pessimism, I also proposed another way, a vote-determined comitee that will then work on the constitution together, so that there will be multi-person deliberation on each issue, and it will be shorter and more substantive, since it will be decided and debated by a smaller number of people.

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148 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:54 pm

OOC:Would people prefer if we three framers went into chat or pms and did more bargaining with each other to get a single constitution?

e:^^Or yeah that.



Last edited by WhiskeyWhiskers on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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149 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:54 pm

KarbinCry wrote:
OOC: While I dont share your pessimism, I also proposed another way, a vote-determined comitee that will then work on the constitution together, so that there will be multi-person deliberation on each issue, and it will be shorter and more substantive, since it will be decided and debated by a smaller number of people.

OOC: This sounds good. Honestly, we've only had 6 people chime in on whether to vote issue by issue or by full constitution and it is split 50/50. This seems a good compromise.

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150 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 3:54 pm

WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:OOC:Would people prefer if we three framers went into chat or pms and did more bargaining with each other to get a single constitution?

e:^^Or yeah that.


This does seem like the way forward.

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