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The Formation of the Echain Government

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176 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:49 pm

My fellow people, I think that it's time to be fair in this state of matter and set up as we call a Socialist Situation, everything is fair when all the people have a little bit to themselves, no one owns property but more as shared, food isn't a problem where there a certain rations are set, I feel like when everyone has a little something it goes right, why not fight with our "Mother" and take down this greed called capitalism!

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177 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:50 pm

I demand that the delegate TomRP addresses all representatives with respect and also that he addresses our former King Elthin with said respect as well, for he paid the ultimate price in service of our country.

I also demand that he will only be allowed to re-enter the chamber when he has cold off.

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178 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:51 pm

TomRP wrote:These proceedings are a farce my dear delegates. We fought for freedom from not just the tyrant, but also from all forms of hegemony. I declare many here have drank too closely from the same waters as the Western capitalist hypocrites. All this talk of "Democracy" is merely control under a different guise. The blood of our kin is barely dry and the treachery has begun, talk of installing the incompetence of the old fat Kings back into their feathered nest at City Central? Was it not their utter incompetence that allowed the tyrant entry in the first place?

I will have no part of it, and neither will those under my banner. If any among you attempt to enforce your tyranny on those areas under my protection, we will treat with you the same way we treated with the tyrant.

I will return to this chamber when sense has returned to your heads.

TomRP,

Inherent to the constitution we are currently drafting is a division of power that favors the will of the people. As Chaos_Ryder iterated, the monarch, if there is to be a monarch, will play a symbolic role that honors tradition rather than shapes legislation. All governments must possess and implement power in order to impose laws that protect the citizens; any notion that power can be wielded without a centralized governing body is a call for anarchy, which is a call for further revolution and bloodshed.

I would urge you to form a political party—one that seeks to fight tyranny where it arises—and place yourself within the senatorial body. Through diplomacy and legislation, you can ensure that the government works for the people and, at the same time, avoid senseless violence.

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179 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:52 pm

Arcacius wrote:For the council to consider, I would propose that should we decide on an election system in which a President would be elected.

1) that the President be given the power to veto a single law that is not a super-majority (70% + 1)
2) Upon the execution of this power the president must step down from his/her position and new election take place.
3) The President whom uses this veto may not be re-elected for the next three (3) election cycles.

i second this

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180 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:54 pm

If anyone has any motion for the constitution, please adress me, Bradley2000, WhiskeyWhiskers or bingcrosby7 via PM, as we are the Comitee for Drafting the Constitution. We will address your concerns that way.

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181 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:55 pm

greywolf wrote:
Arcacius wrote:For the council to consider, I would propose that should we decide on an election system in which a President would be elected.

1) that the President be given the power to veto a single law that is not a super-majority (70% + 1)
2) Upon the execution of this power the president must step down from his/her position and new election take place.
3) The President whom uses this veto may not be re-elected for the next three (3) election cycles.

i second this

OOC: I'm not sure how closely the framers are watching this thread, but at least bingcrosby7 appears to be watching. He should take note of this. Also, I'd like to see replies from the framers watching this thread so I know who I need to PM or if I should simply post in this thread.

Edit: It appears that this was just addressed.

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182 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:59 pm

Lorinbas wrote:I demand that the delegate TomRP addresses all representatives with respect and also that he addresses our former King Elthin with said respect as well, for he paid the ultimate price in service of our country.


And I say dying was his first and only act of service to our nation, to rid us of his burden of existing. I toiled as the harvest wilted, as we all went hungry, and while the "King" played.

I will not stand to be ruled "symbolically" or otherwise, I say remove any thoughts of re-opening the throne room from your heads gentlemen, and that would be a place to start with these proceedings.

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183 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:00 pm

This is how this Socialism would work in my book.

1.) Freedom of Privacy, Freedom of Owning Firearms(You have to be apart of the army to do so)
2.)Habeus Corpus (Unless found guilty on the spot of crime)
3.) Freedom of Speech with certain limits
4.) There would be a election every so years unless I'm ousted or the first elected official is ousted.
5.) Once a certain age you will be drafted into army to fight for glorious country (National Guard/Navy)

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184 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:02 pm

TomRP wrote:
And I say dying was his first and only act of service to our nation, to rid us of his burden of existing. I toiled as the harvest wilted, as we all went hungry, and while the "King" played.

I will not stand to be ruled "symbolically" or otherwise, I say remove any thoughts of re-opening the throne room from your heads gentleman, and that would be a place to start with these proceedings.

Only side bloodlines do be left of the royal lineage. The king that do be responsible for that 'as been dead for years now.

OOC: I recommend you PM the constitutional framers.

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185 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:03 pm

can we not have firearm that open to the public can just keep that to retried service personnel, polices and full qualified hunters

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186 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:06 pm

Freedom of press

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187 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:07 pm

I do be opposed to any firearm protection in the const'ution. We 'ave seen how that works in the US with their 'igh murder rates.

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188 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:07 pm

Good TomRP

I find your regards for a dead man in bad taste and not within the bounds of mutual respect asked from all members of the senate.
I have no right to rule against you, yet I want to make it very clear that I disagree with our positions in the most extreme of ways. So I can just ask you to show more of a consideration for the loss our people suffered. Not more, not less.

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189 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:10 pm

oc do bear in mind it will be the figure from 1949 for all other countries reference

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190 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 5:11 pm

greywolf wrote:oc do bear in mind it will be the figure from 1949 for all other countries reference

OOC: We have data from back then, so I think my comment was still in character. I can't link to it because I'm a new member, but we have US data back to at least 1900.

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191 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:26 pm

MegaZeroX wrote:I do be opposed to any firearm protection in the constiution. We 'ave seen how that works in the US with their high murder rates.

We have noted these issues, yet see problems if a tyrant would be allowed to legally disarm the populace. That is the reason for our wording of this right, which gives the Government power to limit gun ownership by background checks and various forms of testing, provided these aren't overly prohibitive.

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192 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:46 pm

i will still state that my early statement that have a that limit to those three type of people have gun on the open market is asking for trouble

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193 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:54 pm

greywolf wrote:i will still state that my early statement that have a that limit to those three type of people have gun on the open market is asking for trouble  

There are number of countries without such strict restrictions that are doing well. In the end, it is a question of compromise.
I believe the public has the right to protect themselves. Against criminals, against tyrants. Your proposition makes it so that only governmental forces (which can be controlled by a tyrant) and "hunters" (which, depending on the form of restriction, either makes your proposal moot, or they are irrelevant due to small size), meaning people have little possibility to meaningfully defend themselves.

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194 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:09 pm

I believe that a centralized government is necessary for economic development because it allows the economy of the whole nation to grow instead of individual parts. What happens when provinces like PlainsDale and Southport(who are much richer than other provinces) decide it necessary, for the advancement of their province, to invade or siphon resources or effect the political outcomes of other weaker provinces like Lurem. What is to be done then? What happens when a province or provinces decide it necessary to leave this federation? Federations are established in a style that allow the advancement of some provinces while leaving behind other provinces who are unable to better their economy or development. Meanwhile, the separation of provinces as autonomous units also inspires ethical distinctions between them. It allows them to grow apart and distinct until they realize that they are more different than similar to other provinces and decide to leave. Also, what happens when each province decides print their own money or what about border and/or tariffs between provinces?
Meanwhile, a centralized government would allow the easy use of a singular currency. A centralized government allows the easy use and establishment of a national bank that would be run by a third party and would fund the nation in economic depressions as well as during wars. A centralized government would also push toward more specializations by making provinces not worry about having to import resources they require like food, rubber, etc.. A centralized government would also decrease provincial distinctions that were established in the past and help connect the nation as a truly Echain nation instead of being separate provinces and cultures.

This is just my viewpoint on a being a federation vs being a centralized state. If you support these views, come and see the Echain Constitutional Party platform and consider joining.

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195 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:42 pm

I believe that Socialism could work, who would want a failed monarchy with a king and queen who could taunt the kingdom and start labeling people with peasants, Socialism has worked with countries before and when you look at the rates of socialism countries some of their rates or mortality and health rates are better than a monarch and even a capitalist country like the US. Karl Marx had a good idea that should have had a second chance before being looked wrong. Socialism is more fair, when you look at the facts, everyone has a job in a socialist society then one where there is more greed and more than you can handle, Capitalism is all about being the top dog and when you start to realize that everyone is a top dog in a socialist kingdom it starts to make sense, I just want a fair system with fair rules then one where a person is looked upon like a god and a constitution has to be built to make sure the people are brainwashed by these loopedhole rules.

The Democratic Socialist Rules

1.) Habeus Corpus(Unless found guilty at the exact crime of the scene)

2.) Freedom to carry any firearms that have been inspected by a state official

3.) Freedom of Speech unless its about the government itself

4.) Elected officials will be documented at all times prior to stepping into office.

5.) Murphy's Law (Just for Fun)

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196 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:50 pm

grifenknight wrote:I believe that a centralised government is necessary for economic development because it allows the economy of the whole nation to grow instead of individual parts.  What happens when provinces like PlainsDale and Southport(who are much richer than other provinces) decide it necessary, for the advancement of their province, to invade or siphon resources or effect the political outcomes of other weaker provinces like Lurem.  What is to be done then?  What happens when a province or provinces decide it necessary to leave this federation?  Federations are established in a style that allow the advancement of some provinces while leaving behind other provinces who are unable to better their economy or development.  Meanwhile, the separation of provinces as autonomous units also inspires ethical distinctions between them.  It allows them to grow apart and distinct until they realise that they are more different than similar to other provinces and decide to leave.  Also, what happens when each province decides print their own money or what about border and/or tariffs between provinces?
Meanwhile, a centralised government would allow the easy use of a singular currency.  A centralised government allows the easy use and establishment of a national bank that would be run by a third party and would fund the nation in economic depressions as well as during wars.  A centralised government would also push toward more specialisations by making provinces not worry about having to import resources they require like food, rubber, etc..  A centralised government would also decrease provincial distinctions that were established in the past and help connect the nation as a truly Echain nation instead of being separate provinces and cultures.

In a centralised government, the rich provinces are over-represented. They have more money to lobby for their interests, people from those regions will be better educated, and thus will have a path to government not open to poorer citizens.
Any government will eventually favour the rich and developed areas.
By delegating power to the regions, you in fact promote growth in all of them, not just letting the rich get richer and the poor grow poorer.

As to cultural differences, I have to disagree. We in Vensberg are quite different than Luremites or Northportians. Its not about the form of government, but about relative distance between isles.

As to worries about currency and separatism, first, who said local government should have the power to mint coin? And secondly, history shows that separatism grows from people's feeling of lack of power in their affairs, which a decentralised system prevents.

Lastly, to economic worries: these apply only for a very restricted economy. Free market promotes specialisation regardless of political divisions. The fact that each island will have more say in how to support the market doesn't mean that they will each be self-sustaining; that would make no sense economically. Why would I grow grain on Aberisk, when I can import cheaper bread from Plainsville and export expensive lumber to City Central?
I grant you that the cost of import matters for imports outside a certain range, say from Americas, Europe or India, and, to lesser extent, China or Australia, but they are negligible in the grand scheme of things inside Echain.

Of course, it all depends on how you set up the system. Then, could you please provide a critique of my obsolete constitution proposition?

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197 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:54 pm

thebigbadwolfhub wrote:I believe that Socialism could work, who would want a failed monarchy with a king and queen who could taunt the kingdom and start labeling people with peasants, Socialism has worked with countries before and when you look at the rates of socialism countries some of their rates or mortality and health rates are better than a monarch and even a capitalist country like the US. Karl Marx had a good idea that should have had a second chance before being looked wrong. Socialism is more fair, when you look at the facts, everyone has a job in a socialist society then one where there is more greed and more than you can handle, Capitalism is all about being the top dog and when you start to realize that everyone is a top dog in a socialist kingdom it starts to make sense, I just want a fair system with fair rules then one where a person is looked upon like a god and a constitution has to be built to make sure the people are brainwashed by these loopedhole rules.

The Democratic Socialist Rules

1.) Habeus Corpus(Unless found guilty at the exact crime of the scene)

2.) Freedom to carry any firearms that have been inspected by a state official

3.) Freedom of Speech unless its about the government itself

4.) Elected officials will be documented at all times prior to stepping into office.

5.) Murphy's Law (Just for Fun)

How can a system which inherently favours one group of people over another be truly just? It is not the Governments role to be the arbiter of need; its role is to set the minimum necessary amount of rules for people to do what they wish.
Equality of opportunity is just; equality of results is naught but tyranny of the incompetent.

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198 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:02 pm

When do you think Socialism just cares about one set of people, yes the power part is just the people giving their choice to elect the person to power, but everyone gets a job, everyone gets paid the same amount of money then a slick greed like a capitalist would, everyone gets the same food ration, so is their any arguing among the people, No because their nothing to complain about, Just like in a capitalist economy people with argue, protest, or even riot just because someone gets paid a little extra then the other person

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199 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:11 pm

thebigbadwolfhub wrote:When do you think Socialism just cares about one set of people, yes the power part is just the people giving their choice to elect the person to power, but everyone gets a job, everyone gets paid the same amount of money then a slick greed like a capitalist would, everyone gets the same food ration, so is their any arguing among the people, No because their nothing to complain about, Just like in a capitalist economy people with argue, protest, or even riot just because someone gets paid a little extra then the other person

And what makes you sure that that "little extra" wasn't earned? How can you say that the work of a farmer should be valued same as the work of a construction worker? How can you give same reward to someone who works hard and someone who spends half his time slacking off?
And how long do you think it will take before all those hard-working people start slacking as well, seeing their effort doesn't benefit them at all?
Also, if I want to be a bus driver, but I drive slowly, although I could be a great architect, there is nothing to force me to be an architect, to do something I'm good at, in your fake-egalitarian economy.
If everyone is employed, and someone finds some new marvellous invention, how is he to get workers to manufacture it?

How do you suppose an economy of slackers will do? Do you think Echain will prosper? Do you think people will be happy?

True socialism only benefits the incompetent, and real socialism, like that in USSR and China, only the rulers.

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200 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:12 pm

KarbinCry wrote:
thebigbadwolfhub wrote:When do you think Socialism just cares about one set of people, yes the power part is just the people giving their choice to elect the person to power, but everyone gets a job, everyone gets paid the same amount of money then a slick greed like a capitalist would, everyone gets the same food ration, so is their any arguing among the people, No because their nothing to complain about, Just like in a capitalist economy people with argue, protest, or even riot just because someone gets paid a little extra then the other person

And what makes you sure that that "little extra" wasn't earned? How can you say that the work of a farmer should be valued same as the work of a construction worker? How can you give same reward to someone who works hard and someone who spends half his time slacking off?
And how long do you think it will take before all those hard-working people start slacking as well, seeing their effort doesn't benefit them at all?
Also, if I want to be a bus driver, but I drive slowly, although I could be a great architect, there is nothing to force me to be an architect, to do something I'm good at, in your fake-egalitarian economy.
If everyone is employed, and someone finds some new marvellous invention, how is he to get workers to manufacture it?

How do you suppose an economy of slackers will do? Do you think Echain will prosper? Do you think people will be happy?

True socialism only benefits the incompetent, and real socialism, like that in USSR and China, only the rulers.

I agree with this. The problem with socialism is that is grants no incentive causing the economy to fall to shamble after a while.

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