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The Formation of the Echain Government

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201 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:23 pm

If there was a slacker aboard the country, do you know what happens to this person, he gets killed into a gulag camp for disobeying the order he was given, everyone is given a short teaching of what there going to be doing in the next few years and then be killed off for being weak or too tired, its a plus for population and a plus for manufacturing, there is nothing wrong with this type of economy you just have to have the right person leading it, Stalin wasnt to bad of a leader until power got to his head, If you had a non-corrupt person running a corrupt system, what do you think will happen, change in the economy, you just need the right person at the right time to do the right thing for the Socialist Rule

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202 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:27 pm

thebigbadwolfhub wrote:If there was a slacker aboard the country, do you know what happens to this person, he gets killed into a gulag camp for disobeying the order he was given, everyone is given a short teaching of what there going to be doing in the next few years and then be killed off for being weak or too tired, its a plus for population and a plus for manufacturing, there is nothing wrong with this type of economy you just have to have the right person leading it, Stalin wasnt to bad of a leader until power got to his head, If you had a non-corrupt person running a corrupt system, what do you think will happen, change in the economy, you just need the right person at the right time to do the right thing for the Socialist Rule

And here we go. Gulags, ordering citizens like drones with no individual will, and finally some cult of personality and Stalin worship thrown in there.
Who does this system benefit? Methinks only Stalin and a couple of his cronies. Not the people, not the nation, not the economy.

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203 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:28 pm

I second KarbinCry on this one.

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204 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:29 pm

Whatever you position on socialism it is abhorrent to suggest throwing people in camps.

If that is you position I am sure there is a place for you in Moscow...

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205 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:33 pm

Imagine a system with no punishment for people doing dumb stuff, what would you do with them huh, you put them in jail, there sentence is over, they do the same thing again. People need to learn that some actions result in big punishment, Gulags werent all about killing, it was teaching the people who thought that work wasnt need into being a working hard man who will benefit his country, the economy first of all of a Socialist country is well, China has a growing market, USSR has a growing market, even Cuba had a working market that benefited them, the only thing that makes the economy of those countries turn into real crap is the US and The EU, If it wasnt for them, the economy for those Socialist country would be booming

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206 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:34 pm

KarbinCry wrote:
thebigbadwolfhub wrote:I believe that Socialism could work, who would want a failed monarchy with a king and queen who could taunt the kingdom and start labeling people with peasants, Socialism has worked with countries before and when you look at the rates of socialism countries some of their rates or mortality and health rates are better than a monarch and even a capitalist country like the US. Karl Marx had a good idea that should have had a second chance before being looked wrong. Socialism is more fair, when you look at the facts, everyone has a job in a socialist society then one where there is more greed and more than you can handle, Capitalism is all about being the top dog and when you start to realize that everyone is a top dog in a socialist kingdom it starts to make sense, I just want a fair system with fair rules then one where a person is looked upon like a god and a constitution has to be built to make sure the people are brainwashed by these loopedhole rules.

The Democratic Socialist Rules

1.) Habeus Corpus(Unless found guilty at the exact crime of the scene)

2.) Freedom to carry any firearms that have been inspected by a state official

3.) Freedom of Speech unless its about the government itself

4.) Elected officials will be documented at all times prior to stepping into office.

5.) Murphy's Law (Just for Fun)

How can a system which inherently favours one group of people over another be truly just? It is not the Governments role to be the arbiter of need; its role is to set the minimum necessary amount of rules for people to do what they wish.
Equality of opportunity is just; equality of results is naught but tyranny of the incompetent.

I am with KarbinCry on this issue. All rights are eschewed if one is found guilty? Would this be a trial by jury or Magistrate? Who would decide guilt or innocence.

Have all firearms inspected by a state official prior to being allowed to be carried? What is to say that that 'Official' does not, by fiat, declare all firearms unfit?

Elected Officials will be documented at all times prior to stepping into office? Unless you plan on plucking those elected out of the ground like carrots, that would mean that everyone would be watched since everyone would, I assume, have the right to run for office.

While I do acknowledge your heart was in the the right place, there are so many opportunities for abuse, corruption and collusion that I must vote nay.

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207 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:34 pm

thebigbadwolfhub wrote:Imagine a system with no punishment for people doing dumb stuff, what would you do with them huh, you put them in jail, there sentence is over, they do the same thing again. People need to learn that some actions result in big punishment, Gulags werent all about killing, it was teaching the people who thought that work wasnt need into being a working hard man who will benefit his country, the economy first of all of a Socialist country is well, China has a growing market, USSR has a growing market, even Cuba had a working market that benefited them, the only thing that makes the economy of those countries turn into real crap is the US and The EU, If it wasnt for them, the economy for those Socialist country would be booming

My god sir.....


What you propose is terrible and even unworthy of the Japanese!

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208 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:38 pm

I remind you that the year is now 1949 (or soon 1950).

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209 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:39 pm

Someone show this damn socialist pig the way out before i take him out myself. Do you really believe turning our government into one based off of fear is a good idea? Communism is a brilliant idea, but you forget one detail. YOUR DEALING WITH FUCKING HUMANS. If we establish our government off of fear then we are no better than the tyrants we fought against. Without fear they wont work due to lack of incentive and with fear, they will turn sooner on us before you can say the word "Gulag". The cycle will repeat and we will be back into a bloody civil war until the next tyrant or senate appears. I dont see a SINGLE good thing to come out of socialism for our country. Good day to you, my dear sir, and go back to the communist pigs back in Moscow where you belong.

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210 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:39 pm

Remember the KGB, they documented every citizen in the USSR, dont you think that was a good thing, no terrorist backgrounds, no corruption in office before, there were reasons why the USSR had reasons for killing those million people, the KGB stopped them from corruption, without them during WW2, we wouldnt have been able to eliminate all those German Wehrmacht generals to end the war, there are benefits of this whole thing it just takes the right person to do the right thing

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211 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:41 pm

grifenknight wrote:Someone show this damn socialist pig the way out before i take him out myself.  Do you really believe turning our government into one based off of fear is a good idea?  Communism is a brilliant idea, but you forget one detail.  YOUR DEALING WITH FUCKING HUMANS.  If we establish our government off of fear then we are no better than the tyrants we fought against.  Without fear they wont work due to lack of incentive and with fear, they will turn sooner on us before you can say the word "Gulag".  The cycle will repeat and we will be back into a bloody civil war until the next tyrant or senate appears.  I dont see a SINGLE good thing to come out of socialism for our country.  Good day to you, my dear sir, and go back to the communist pigs back in Moscow where you belong.

Gentlemen please regain composure and please do try and refrain from violence.

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212 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:45 pm

thebigbadwolfhub wrote:If there was a slacker aboard the country, do you know what happens to this person, he gets killed into a gulag camp for disobeying the order he was given, everyone is given a short teaching of what there going to be doing in the next few years and then be killed off for being weak or too tired, its a plus for population and a plus for manufacturing, there is nothing wrong with this type of economy you just have to have the right person leading it, Stalin wasnt to bad of a leader until power got to his head, If you had a non-corrupt person running a corrupt system, what do you think will happen, change in the economy, you just need the right person at the right time to do the right thing for the Socialist Rule

Dear lord.

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213 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:53 pm

The political and economic theory of socialism was created with the vision of a utopian society in mind. Contrary to other economic systems, there is no real consensus on how the ideal socialist society should function. Dozens of forms of socialism exist, all with differing ideas about economic planning, community size and many other factors. Despite the variations in socialist thought, every version advocates the benefits of cooperation among the people, steering clear of the "evils" of competition associated with capitalism. There you guys go

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214 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:07 pm

thebigbadwolfhub wrote:The political and economic theory of socialism was created with the vision of a utopian society in mind. Contrary to other economic systems, there is no real consensus on how the ideal socialist society should function. Dozens of forms of socialism exist, all with differing ideas about economic planning, community size and many other factors. Despite the variations in socialist thought, every version advocates the benefits of cooperation among the people, steering clear of the "evils" of competition associated with capitalism. There you guys go

A partial definition is all well and good, but you presented your views as either utopian variety of socialism or stalinism. Now, I can respect a debate the utopian viewpoint, but I cannot tolerate stalinism.

OOT: So, if we are to discuss communism, which is unavoidable, given the timeframe we are playing in, please at least pretend to ommit the darker aspects. First, you will not convince anybody by proposing gulags, second, some people will not tolerate it.
Like myself. I live in a country that was a part of the Eastern bloc. Most of the people I know remember those times, and even though, comparatively, we were better off than, say, Chinese or Poles, to this day I see the damage done during those 40 years, and if you are going to try to sell me communism using all the wrongs that came with it, I will inevitably go OOC and it will not be pretty.
If you really believe gulags were great, please refrain from using them and focus on other aspects of communism. If you just do it "in character", you can surely find some other way your character could defend himself. It's not as though there are no positive arguments for communism.

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215 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:08 pm

NONE OF THIS MATTERS ANYMORE... THE HEIR IS FOUND

OOC: READ THE THREAD IN THE MAIN PAGE.

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216 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:49 pm

thebigbadwolfhub wrote:Remember the KGB, they documented every citizen in the USSR, dont you think that was a good thing, no terrorist backgrounds, no corruption in office before, there were reasons why the USSR had reasons for killing those million people, the KGB stopped them from corruption, without them during WW2, we wouldnt have been able to eliminate all those German Wehrmacht generals to end the war, there are benefits of this whole thing it just takes the right person to do the right thing

And who is to say that the government doesn't spin out of control and use such information to cull political rivals? I would be very afraid of any government who wanted that much information on anyone. That is not freedom if you can't even speak your own thoughts, no matter what they are.

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217 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:57 pm

I was never showing a support to a gulag system but in a way I would run this Socialist platform is that people who did not do their job right would be handled in a way of punishment, Im not saying that they would be sent to a gulag because in my perspective that was the only thing I have no opinion on but more like a suspension of work or even abolishing them to another country, or even cutting their money off, I mean listen if you dont do the work to benefit the glorious socialism itself then you shouldnt be allowed to share it at all

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218 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:03 pm

And first of all this is the beginning of the Socialist Rule, their will be changes the clear things up in the future, jobs to be considered, a right hand man to my side, My whole opinion to this is that it's not bad as it seems, My constitution will change a bit here and there but the firearm amendment and the FKGB(Basically its the KGB of Echain) and I will try my best to be the small dose of Socialism as I can so that corruption is not abroad. Im basically the McCarthy of Echain

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219 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:04 pm

To the Dedicated and Honorable Citizens of Echain,

Since the shocking revelation of Zeiss’ parentage, and since his abdication and public proclamation, it has come to the attention of the constitutional framers that transparency has become a perceived issue. We are public servants who wish to remain as transparent as possible; and, as such, we are assembling a committee that will act as a third-party supervisor who will ensure that the four constitutional framers are advancing a constitution that protects each individual citizen from tyranny.

Bearing this in mind, we require the assistance of various individuals from each major city in Echain. We have already filled positions from City Central, Northport, Versberg, and Southport; however, we need volunteers from Aberisk, Plainsdale, Waltens, and Lurem.

Individuals from these cities will be brought into the constitutional drafting process as observers who will provide insight into the individual needs of the citizens; however, your main objective will be to telegraph the framers’ activities to the public in order to reassure the public that the framers are drafting the constitution with the people in mind.

If you believe you are a good fit for this task, please contact me via private message. Thank you for your time; we look forward to working with you to make the best constitution we can.

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220 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:06 pm

I would like to participate if possible even though you already have someone from central city, my Birthplace.

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221 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:07 pm

grifenknight wrote:I would like to participate if possible even though you already have someone from central city, my Birthplace.

We are open to everyone.

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222 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:38 pm

KarbinCry wrote:
grifenknight wrote:I believe that a centralised government is necessary for economic development because it allows the economy of the whole nation to grow instead of individual parts.  What happens when provinces like PlainsDale and Southport(who are much richer than other provinces) decide it necessary, for the advancement of their province, to invade or siphon resources or effect the political outcomes of other weaker provinces like Lurem.  What is to be done then?  What happens when a province or provinces decide it necessary to leave this federation?  Federations are established in a style that allow the advancement of some provinces while leaving behind other provinces who are unable to better their economy or development.  Meanwhile, the separation of provinces as autonomous units also inspires ethical distinctions between them.  It allows them to grow apart and distinct until they realise that they are more different than similar to other provinces and decide to leave.  Also, what happens when each province decides print their own money or what about border and/or tariffs between provinces?
Meanwhile, a centralised government would allow the easy use of a singular currency.  A centralised government allows the easy use and establishment of a national bank that would be run by a third party and would fund the nation in economic depressions as well as during wars.  A centralised government would also push toward more specialisations by making provinces not worry about having to import resources they require like food, rubber, etc..  A centralised government would also decrease provincial distinctions that were established in the past and help connect the nation as a truly Echain nation instead of being separate provinces and cultures.

In a centralised government, the rich provinces are over-represented. They have more money to lobby for their interests, people from those regions will be better educated, and thus will have a path to government not open to poorer citizens.
Any government will eventually favour the rich and developed areas.
By delegating power to the regions, you in fact promote growth in all of them, not just letting the rich get richer and the poor grow poorer.

As to cultural differences, I have to disagree. We in Vensberg are quite different than Luremites or Northportians. Its not about the form of government, but about relative distance between isles.

As to worries about currency and separatism, first, who said local government should have the power to mint coin? And secondly, history shows that separatism grows from people's feeling of lack of power in their affairs, which a decentralised system prevents.

Lastly, to economic worries: these apply only for a very restricted economy. Free market promotes specialisation regardless of political divisions. The fact that each island will have more say in how to support the market doesn't mean that they will each be self-sustaining; that would make no sense economically. Why would I grow grain on Aberisk, when I can import cheaper bread from Plainsville and export expensive lumber to City Central?
I grant you that the cost of import matters for imports outside a certain range, say from Americas, Europe or India, and, to lesser extent, China or Australia, but they are negligible in the grand scheme of things inside Echain.

Of course, it all depends on how you set up the system. Then, could you please provide a critique of my

Some responses to your responses: (sorry this is forever after your response, i wrote a lengthier response than this, but for some reason it was never sent.)

Over-representation- As you stated, "Any government will eventually favor the rich and developed areas."  While this is true, this has different meanings in different governments.  In a centralized government, this would mean increased lobbying from these provinces, but also gives the government the ability to help and support the poorer provinces and increase their support in the government as well as strengthen their economy and development.

You also state,"By delegating power to the regions, you in fact promote growth in all of them, not just letting the rich get richer and the poor grow poorer."  Its the other way around.  By having a central government, it will depend on the senate if it will be rich=richer and poor=poorer or if the senate start policies, projects and send aid, they will be able to revitalize the poor regions and help them flourish.
Meanwhile in the federation, Most provinces will lack a good reason to help anyone, but themselves.  The more prosperous provinces will end up invading, siphoning resources and interfering with politics in other provinces to reach their goals.  This will lead to a very wide gap between the rich and poor provinces.

Cultural Differences-  The reason the current cultures are so diverse is because of the fact that before the Japanese occupation, we were a loose federation held by a weak monarch.  This is why we were so easily conquered.  But under a central government, we will be able to classify instead as the Echain people instead of Vensberg or Luremites or Northportians.  You also cant blame distinct differences based on distance since we are the size of Ireland...

Currency-  Under a central government, its extremely easy to set up a singular currency used by everyone, but in a federation, it is much harder.  The question arises, who is to stop them if they do mint their own coin?  There is no central group to stop them from doing this.  A prime example is the US under the article of confederation.  Every individual state ended up printing their own money, essentially destroying the economy.

Separatism- That was one of the most important things stated in Bradley2000's draft.  The citizens of this state would be able to vote and elect a representative for their province to represent them in the federal senate, while in the mean time, they would also be able to participate in the local/provincial government that would have some autonomy in ruling their province as long as it did not interfere with federal law and/or policies.  This allows the citizens express their needs and wants in the federal senate and attend to their province as they please.  We would also be able to give an equal amount of votes to each province and making it an equal system.

Economic worries-  You say that the federation will be a free market, but that would dig the poor in an even deeper hole because its exactly that... a free market.  Other provinces will lack any incentives to trade with the poorer nations like Lurem because 1)no one would want to sell in the poorer provinces due to their lack of the ability to buy things and 2)would be forced to sell their products for cheaper in order to sell those products.  No sensible province would dream of exporting to a poor province if that was the case.  Thats where the central government would step in.  They would either force some products to be directed to the poor province for a cheaper price or send food aid for free to help the poor.

I would also love to critique your constitution when given the time. Very Happy (OOC: dont wanna sound snide but i genuinely wanna go over it, its pretty well made.  Its especially good for me to learn more about politics and government as a 16 year old... Very Happy )

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223 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:02 am

Ladies and gentlemen, please forgive my late appearance to this grandiose cabinet of freedom and prosperity.

Please allow me to introduce myself. I am the representative of Axecack Entriprises and of Axecack himself, the namesake, chairman and majority shareholder of the Northport-based manufacturing superpower that is known only as Axecack Enterprises (AE).

We at AE have come to watch, observe, comment and occasionally weigh in on the political proceedings within this chamber. To those mistaking our voice for the irrelevant riff raff of the common populace, let me remind you that our employees and their families represent the majority voter base of all of Northport's blue collar workers.

We are a province on the up and up and contain the largest airstrip (OOC: only airstrip?) within all Echain and are growing at a rapid pace with the largest numbers in both international and domestic immigration. Our natural resources and terrain advantages prop us up as the epicenter of all future development. To ignore our voice would be a severe misstep of any upstart politician.

----

We are aware of the recent debates and proceedings in regards to the formation of a new government and fully believe that a centralized unification movement is necessary at this point in our history. To decentralize the state would be to fracture us and leave us vulnerable to Japanese incursion.

Let me remind you all that though our victory was hard won, it was the external threat of American invasion which drove off the majority of our Japanese overlords. It is time to grow our strength so that our old nemesis would never think of coming back and attempting to subjugate us once more.

Our founder fought and bled for this country, and when he could no longer fight he supported the fractured rebellion through the provision of arms and resources that were otherwise denied by the Japanese. We know full well what war is like and seek to avoid it. It is time for us to unify not as rebels, but as a pound, national militia.

Even now we risk becoming yet another leaf in the great wind of international super powers that seek to fight for global supremacy. Our natural resources have brought invaders before and will do so again in this era of strife. We must not let ourselves be subjugated again.

Centralize the government. As a Republic or otherwise, it does not matter. We must unify, or be destroyed.

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224 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:51 am

Welcome to the discussion and I agree with you 100%. The government must be centralized.

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225 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:27 am

*A Older man shuffles in, his family was once Portuguese administrators and is well known as a conservative and a monarchist.*

Hogwash I say! Hogwash to all of you! It is well known that the most glorious nations on this fair earth have had a king to grace their head except the United States, a country borne from a monarchy! The Imperial German government, the French Kingdom of Louis XIV, the Spanish Empire, the Roman Empire and perhaps the greatest example the British! All had monarchs at their helm, and all prospered. While monarchy does have its flaws to propose to abolish tradition and hand our country to the rabble is...

As mighty Jove smote Phaethon for daring to ride the chariot of the sun, we should not give the reigns of our government to the unready, to the commoners. They are uneducated, they are many, and they are utterly unable to choose their government. In here we have socialists arguing with fascists how to best exterminate our own people!!!

The government must be set up in accordance with the will of the past, with tradition and our values placed above all us. The people must be led and educated before we dare give them a taste of power, they will easily fall sway to a Caesar or a Cromwell. A demagogue. Mark my words, give something to the people when they have not been trained for it and we shall see a dictator over our fair nation within the decade.

I thereby propose the creation of a House of Lords, of those who served His majesty's government before the Japanese arrived to temper the people. These people, with a different interest to the common people shall temper them and guard against a demagogue.

Second we shall establish a federal system for each area to represent itself. While we are a small state and a unity state would make sense, we can already see that regionalism has become deeply rooted and we must placate the people of these factions in order to avoid civil war or conflict over centralism.

Thirdly, the Senate, shall serve as a advisory board to the monarch in theory but in reality hold the right to draft and propose legislation. The Monarch will have the constitutional right to warn, to advise, and to commend progress we make.

Let us not grow fear the darkness ahead for we are the light my brothers and sisters. Fear not the Japanese or the Americans or even the far away Soviet, we shall build ourselves into something greater. In the past the pacific has merely been places for the great fleets of the West and East to stop by and refuel on coal. I say no longer!

We shall rebuild, we shall endure and we shall become greater. Long live the Echain people and the Echain King *He takes a seat and strokes his mustache*

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