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The Formation of the Echain Government

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76 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:22 pm

WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
bradley2000 wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Agreed. Would those arguing for a constitutional monarchy compromise and allow the hybrid direct/representative democracy I explained earlier to exist with a constitutional monarch, should one be found?

That is exactly what my proposal outlines.

I must strongly disagree that it does. I would ask that further consideration be made towards weekly election of delegates to the senate by way of consensus decision making.

Sir! what you propose would be a bureaucratic nightmare!. Weekly elections like you propose would create never ending conflicts in government and laws would never pass!.

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77 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:23 pm

We already have a voting system in place in the forum. It tallies up vote automatically.

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78 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:25 pm

bradley2000 wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
bradley2000 wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Agreed. Would those arguing for a constitutional monarchy compromise and allow the hybrid direct/representative democracy I explained earlier to exist with a constitutional monarch, should one be found?

That is exactly what my proposal outlines.

I must strongly disagree that it does. I would ask that further consideration be made towards weekly election of delegates to the senate by way of consensus decision making.

Sir! what you propose would be a bureaucratic nightmare!. Weekly elections like you propose would create never ending conflicts in government and laws would never pass!.

Agreed, elections mean nothing if the winner's tenure is momentary. That said, I believe I see the heart of what you are saying. Perhaps we should draft some provisions that allow for the impeachment and removal of an individual senator (e.g. inactivity as grounds for removal, unwillingness to vote, etc.). I think this is an appropriate compromise that address a large swathe of concerns.

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79 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:25 pm

I would like to propose the estsblishment of rule of law that assures that no one is above the law including the possible monarch and any member of our legislature. I would also like to edge at the idea of a judicial branch that would be like a counter balance to the legislative branch. They will have the power to remove senators from their position of power of thy have the proper reasons/evidence and would also be allowed to deem laws or acts by the Senate harmful to the people of our glorious nation.

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80 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:30 pm

grifenknight wrote:I would like to propose the estsblishment of rule of law that assures that no one is above the law including the possible monarch and any member of our legislature.  I would also like to edge at the idea of a judicial branch that would be like a counter balance to the legislative branch.  They will have the power to remove senators from their position of power of thy have the proper reasons/evidence and would also be allowed to deem laws or acts by the Senate harmful to the people of our glorious nation.

I do be secondin' that.

Zeiss wrote:We already have a voting system in place in the forum. It tallies up vote automatically.

OOC: But that would make it a first past the post system, which mean something can win with like 10% of the votes. In the last British election, the conservative party won in some areas with less than 30% of the votes, which is absurd. The voting system on the forum is fine for voting for bills, with a "yay" or "nay," but doesn't work well for an actual voting system. In one area, the labour party won with 24.5% of the votes.



Last edited by MegaZeroX on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added actual statsitics)

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81 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:30 pm

grifenknight wrote:I would like to propose the estsblishment of rule of law that assures that no one is above the law including the possible monarch and any member of our legislature.  I would also like to edge at the idea of a judicial branch that would be like a counter balance to the legislative branch.  They will have the power to remove senators from their position of power of thy have the proper reasons/evidence and would also be allowed to deem laws or acts by the Senate harmful to the people of our glorious nation.

Agreed here is an update of my proposal


I would present to the honourable delegates a system of government that can provide stability to this nation while at the same time providing democracy for the masses.

1. A Constitutional Monarchy in which a King/Queen shall rule in the capacity of a powerless monarch. This monarch will have the symbolic power of being able to dissolve the government and trigger elections at any time if the masses demand it and shall advice the government on important matters. The heir to the throne (current whereabouts unknown) shall be found and placed in this position but if he/she can't be found another person shall be elected to that position and have their decedents rule for all time.

2. The federal government shall be a representative democracy which shall be comprised of the Senate. This body will be elected by the people and will meet to decide the various laws and actions of out nation.

3. The politicians of the nation can form political party's and shall choose candidates to run for the highest elected station that of President and Vice President who will choose the cabinet of the nation which will have various departments. The President and Vice President shall be decided by the public and shall have a rounds system. E.G. if you have 5 party's the people shall mark the order in which they rate the party's and the lowest voted party shall be eliminated and their votes handed out to their voters second choice until two party's remain and one gets a majority.

4. The local governments (Mayors and Governors) shall be a force separate from the federal government and will govern their own province this includes handling infrastructure and other local matters. These men and woman shall be voted for by the public in separate elections.

5. The military shall not act in any way on matters without the Senates affirmation and shall be sworn to the nation and not any single office or person to prevent this person from obtaining absolute power.

6. The establishment of a judicial branch that has the power to critique laws and impeach Senators and the President/Vice President if they have broken a law of our great nation.

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82 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:33 pm

bradley2000 wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
bradley2000 wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Agreed. Would those arguing for a constitutional monarchy compromise and allow the hybrid direct/representative democracy I explained earlier to exist with a constitutional monarch, should one be found?

That is exactly what my proposal outlines.

I must strongly disagree that it does. I would ask that further consideration be made towards weekly election of delegates to the senate by way of consensus decision making.

Sir! what you propose would be a bureaucratic nightmare!. Weekly elections like you propose would create never ending conflicts in government and laws would never pass!.

I agree with bradley2000. Such a proposal would create a crazy amount of paperwork, there is no democratic system on this planet with such system.

I also second grifenkights proposal regarding the monarchs and senators legal status.
I also want to state that in the case that heir is to be found but unwilling to be part of the coming government he or she well have to resign all claims to the throne, at least that is my proposal.

I second bradley2000 updated proposal.



Last edited by Lorinbas on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

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83 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:34 pm

The Echain People's Army of National Liberation's proposes a compromise system of government based on a hybrid hopefully amenable to all.

1. A Constitutional Monarchy in which a monarch will act as a figurehead. This monarch will have the symbolic power of being able to dissolve the senate and trigger elections at any time if the masses demand it  and shall advice the government on important matters. The heir to the throne (current whereabouts unknown) shall be found and placed in this position but if he/she can't be found another person shall be elected to that position and have their decedents rule for all time. a non-hereditary position to be known as the President, with the same powers will be created, with appointment by a simple majority by the senate for a term of three (3) years with a three (3) term limit.

2. The federal government shall be a representative democracy which shall be comprised of the Senate. This body will be elected weekly by the people and will meet to decide the various laws discuss and compromise on the consensus will of their constituents.

3. The politicians of the nation can form political party's and shall choose candidates to run for the highest elected station that of President and Vice President who will choose the cabinet of the nation which will have various departments. The President and Vice President shall be decided by the public and shall have a rounds system. E.G. if you have 5 party's the people shall mark the order in which they rate the party's and the lowest voted party shall be eliminated and their votes handed out to their voters second choice until two party's remain and one gets a majority.

4. The local governments (Mayors and Governors) shall be a force separate from the federal government and will govern their own province this includes handling infrastructure and other local matters. These men and woman shall be voted for by the public in separate elections.

3. The military shall not act in any way on matters without the Senates affirmation and shall be sworn to the nation and not any single office or person to prevent this person from obtaining absolute power.

4. Independently drawn electorates, of roughly the size of a town or suburb will meet each week to discuss and decide the issues and various laws of the nation, with decisions made by consensus. At the end of each week's meeting a ballot will be taken to decide the delegate entrusted with presenting the group's consensus decision to the senate, and making whatever compromises they personally feel necessary for the spirit of the decision to pass.

5. The establishment of a judicial branch that has the power to critique laws and impeach Senators and the President/Vice President if they have broken a law of our great nation.

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84 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:38 pm

WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:The Echain People's Army of National Liberation's proposes a compromise system of government based on a hybrid hopefully amenable to all.

1. A Constitutional Monarchy in which a monarch will act as a figurehead. This monarch will have the symbolic power of being able to dissolve the senate and trigger elections at any time if the masses demand it  and shall advice the government on important matters. The heir to the throne (current whereabouts unknown) shall be found and placed in this position but if he/she can't be found another person shall be elected to that position and have their decedents rule for all time. a non-hereditary position to be known as the President, with the same powers will be created, with appointment by a simple majority by the senate for a term of three (3) years with a three (3) term limit.

2. The federal government shall be a representative democracy which shall be comprised of the Senate. This body will be elected weekly by the people and will meet to decide the various laws discuss and compromise on the consensus will of their constituents.

3. The politicians of the nation can form political party's and shall choose candidates to run for the highest elected station that of President and Vice President who will choose the cabinet of the nation which will have various departments. The President and Vice President shall be decided by the public and shall have a rounds system. E.G. if you have 5 party's the people shall mark the order in which they rate the party's and the lowest voted party shall be eliminated and their votes handed out to their voters second choice until two party's remain and one gets a majority.

4. The local governments (Mayors and Governors) shall be a force separate from the federal government and will govern their own province this includes handling infrastructure and other local matters. These men and woman shall be voted for by the public in separate elections.

3. The military shall not act in any way on matters without the Senates affirmation and shall be sworn to the nation and not any single office or person to prevent this person from obtaining absolute power.

4. Independently drawn electorates, of roughly the size of a town or suburb will meet each week to discuss and decide the issues and various laws of the nation, with decisions made by consensus. At the end of each week's meeting a ballot will be taken to decide the delegate entrusted with presenting the group's consensus decision to the senate, and making whatever compromises they personally feel necessary for the spirit of the decision to pass.

5. The establishment of a judicial branch that has the power to critique laws and impeach Senators and the President/Vice President if they have broken a law of our great nation.

Most o' this be soundin' fine, but I do be believin' that a weekly election is mad! I do be suggesting that we have monthly elections, at most!

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85 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:39 pm

No crazy amount of paperwork is needed. Just an agreed to compromise that all attending find non-objectionable, or if no compromise is possible, an abstention.

e: I will compromise on the time between council meetings if those attending find it this objectionable. Is a month acceptable to others?



Last edited by WhiskeyWhiskers on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total

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86 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:39 pm

4. Independently drawn electorates, of roughly the size of a town or suburb will meet each week to discuss and decide the issues and various laws of the nation, with decisions made by consensus. At the end of each week's meeting a ballot will be taken to decide the delegate entrusted with presenting the group's consensus decision to the senate, and making whatever compromises they personally feel necessary for the spirit of the decision to pass.



This seems to be mere fantasy! you can't expect people to turn up EVERY week and decide on these matters and thus this would not as is your intention make the people more involved.

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87 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:41 pm

bradley2000 wrote:4. Independently drawn electorates, of roughly the size of a town or suburb will meet each week to discuss and decide the issues and various laws of the nation, with decisions made by consensus. At the end of each week's meeting a ballot will be taken to decide the delegate entrusted with presenting the group's consensus decision to the senate, and making whatever compromises they personally feel necessary for the spirit of the decision to pass.



This seems to be mere fantasy! you can't expect people to turn up EVERY week and decide on these matters and thus this would not as is your intention make the people more involved.

Uh, that's the whole point of this game; each turn would probably take one real life week.

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88 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:41 pm

Bah! I suggest we put my proposal and WhiskeyWhiskers proposal to a vote and be done with this!

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89 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:42 pm

Zeiss wrote:

Uh, that's the whole point of this game; each turn would probably take one real life week.

OOC: But not necessarily an election every week. At the very least, we don't need to be updated to the will of our local towns every week. We our on our own for a moth before answering to the people.

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90 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:43 pm

I mean to do just that! If we want a free and informed populace everyone must be involved. Most don't even turn up every four years to make their voices heard in other countries. If someone is able to even make a town council meeting that much they will find they have much more of a say in government than choosing the best tie in a popularity contest, their ideas will be heard.

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91 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:44 pm

OOC: We're roleplaying though. That is completely unreasonable in a real government. Time does not necessarily have to pass at the same speed for both game and life.

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92 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:46 pm

MegaZeroX wrote:
Zeiss wrote:

Uh, that's the whole point of this game; each turn would probably take one real life week.

OOC: But not necessarily an election every week. At the very least, we don't need to be updated to the will of our local towns every week. We our on our own for a moth before answering to the people.

The whole point was that we're both the town council and the senate. We elect the senators each week to compromise on the decisions we make in the threads of the 'electorate' we're placed in.

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93 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:46 pm

I also am for a vote regarding the proposals of bradley2000 and WhiskeyWhiskers.
I do not believe that we can come to a real consensus regarding this proposals to the senate.

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94 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:47 pm

OOC: It's used in real life though.

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95 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:48 pm

MegaZeroX wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:The Echain People's Army of National Liberation's proposes a compromise system of government based on a hybrid hopefully amenable to all.

1. A Constitutional Monarchy in which a monarch will act as a figurehead. This monarch will have the symbolic power of being able to dissolve the senate and trigger elections at any time if the masses demand it  and shall advice the government on important matters. The heir to the throne (current whereabouts unknown) shall be found and placed in this position but if he/she can't be found another person shall be elected to that position and have their decedents rule for all time. a non-hereditary position to be known as the President, with the same powers will be created, with appointment by a simple majority by the senate for a term of three (3) years with a three (3) term limit.

2. The federal government shall be a representative democracy which shall be comprised of the Senate. This body will be elected weekly by the people and will meet to decide the various laws discuss and compromise on the consensus will of their constituents.

3. The politicians of the nation can form political party's and shall choose candidates to run for the highest elected station that of President and Vice President who will choose the cabinet of the nation which will have various departments. The President and Vice President shall be decided by the public and shall have a rounds system. E.G. if you have 5 party's the people shall mark the order in which they rate the party's and the lowest voted party shall be eliminated and their votes handed out to their voters second choice until two party's remain and one gets a majority.

4. The local governments (Mayors and Governors) shall be a force separate from the federal government and will govern their own province this includes handling infrastructure and other local matters. These men and woman shall be voted for by the public in separate elections.

3. The military shall not act in any way on matters without the Senates affirmation and shall be sworn to the nation and not any single office or person to prevent this person from obtaining absolute power.

4. Independently drawn electorates, of roughly the size of a town or suburb will meet each week to discuss and decide the issues and various laws of the nation, with decisions made by consensus. At the end of each week's meeting a ballot will be taken to decide the delegate entrusted with presenting the group's consensus decision to the senate, and making whatever compromises they personally feel necessary for the spirit of the decision to pass.

5. The establishment of a judicial branch that has the power to critique laws and impeach Senators and the President/Vice President if they have broken a law of our great nation.

Most o' this be soundin' fine, but I do be believin' that a weekly election is mad! I do be suggesting that we have monthly elections, at most!

I’d like to address the Whiskey’s articles on a point-by-point basis:

1. Yes, the monarch should be a figurehead, and, yes, if possible, the monarch should hail from the original bloodline; however, if we cannot find this heir, or if the heir is killed in transit back to the capitol or dies prematurely, your article implies that we will default to a system that has a president and vice president, which renders our governmental system a constitutional republic rather than a constitutional monarchy. If this is the case, it would be reasonable to simplify this article and cut out the monarchy entirely. This, however, would be a misstep, and would likely anger the people who have become accustomed to a monarchy. Instead, I propose we should allow the people to elect a king in the event that the original bloodline is wiped out, then separately elect a president to oversee the senatorial body.

2. To echo everyone else’s sentiment, once per week elections are unreasonable. Senatorial office should last longer than one week.

3. I see no trouble with your number three, and I agree that we should not make explicit laws about political parties—they should be private groups that operate within in a legislative body.

4. The original fourth article is necessary—local principalities should retain some rights to protect their regional interests.

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96 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:55 pm

bingcrosby7 wrote:

I’d like to address the Whiskey’s articles on a point-by-point basis:

1. Yes, the monarch should be a figurehead, and, yes, if possible, the monarch should hail from the original bloodline; however, if we cannot find this heir, or if the heir is killed in transit back to the capitol or dies prematurely, your article implies that we will default to a system that has a president and vice president, which renders our governmental system a constitutional republic rather than a constitutional monarchy. If this is the case, it would be reasonable to simplify this article and cut out the monarchy entirely. This, however, would be a misstep, and would likely anger the people who have become accustomed to a monarchy. Instead, I propose we should allow the people to elect a king in the event that the original bloodline is wiped out, then separately elect a president to oversee the senatorial body.

2. To echo everyone else’s sentiment, once per week elections are unreasonable. Senatorial office should last longer than one week.

3. I see no trouble with your number three, and I agree that we should not make explicit laws about political parties—they should be private groups that operate within in a legislative body.

4. The original fourth article is necessary—local principalities should retain some rights to protect their regional interests.

1. Yes, if the original bloodline is not able to be found, a new bloodline should not be established. While I will bow to the will of the people regarding their love of our monarchy and tradition, it is patently absurd and anachronistic to create a new royal dynasty. We are a modern nation!

2. 6 months?

4. The original fourth article's intention is superseded by the use of town councils. That is even greater regional representation and far more democratic.

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97 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:57 pm

I would like to highly recommend and second Bradley2000'set proposal. I find the changes in whiskey's much too radical for my taste. A weekly election would be absurd and he crosses out the legislations ability to form parties and vote for a president separate from the monarch.

I believe the only real viable option is Bradley2000's. A monarch would help cement our ability to rule because most of our citizens only know of times that consist of monarchs and dictators. Whisky also crosses out the practice of giving state/province leaders some autonomy from the other states as well as the federal government.

OOC: if you look at present forms of democracy, the US has no monarch because before it became independent, they had a simple form of representative democracy for almost 100 years and had no real experience with a king in their presence and that reflects on their current government while the UK has had a monarch for as long as they remember and that reflects in their current government.

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98 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:58 pm

Explain "Independently Drawn Electorates" it brings to mind a random group of unelected citizens being drafted weekly against their will (like jury duty) to discuss politics and draft bills. This sounds like an awful and cumbersome waste of everyone's time.

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99 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:58 pm

Look gentlemen and ladies,

I did not spend a week fighting in the streets of Southport for all of this infighting!

Everyone should vote soon before our government ends before it has even begun!

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100 Re: The Formation of the Echain Government on Tue Jan 03, 2017 2:59 pm

Evilknightz wrote:Explain "Independently Drawn Electorates" it brings to mind a random group of unelected citizens being drafted weekly against their will (like jury duty) to discuss politics and draft bills. This sounds like an awful and cumbersome waste of everyone's time.

OOC: Arche using a random number generator.

IC: Some bureaucrats drawing lines on a map like they do now to figure out nicely sized pockets of people.

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