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Committee for Democratic Constitution (Bradley2000, WhiskeyWhiskers, bingcrosby7, KarbinCry, grifinknight)

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For the discussion on the Constitution.



Last edited by bradley2000 on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Is this where we are going to start the framing of this constitution?

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First, we should choose whether we want a republic or a vestigial kingdom (with largely insignificant king).

Personaly, I dont have a preference either way, but having a republic would make things more streamlinable (no hereditary position of power), I believe.

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I propose we each have 10 points to bid on parts of the constitution we want changed or kept one way. Place more points on things you can't stand, or couldn't live without.

Aye or Nay.

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WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:I propose we each have 10 points to bid on parts of the constitution we want changed or kept one way. Place more points on things you can't stand, or couldn't live without.

I feel like that is more conductive to infighting and strategisising (or whatever) than substantive discussion that is necessary, if we are to create a consensual constitution.

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KarbinCry wrote:First, we should choose whether we want a republic or a vestigial kingdom (with largely insignificant king).

Personaly, I dont have a preference either way, but having a republic would make things more streamlinable (no hereditary position of power), I believe.

Based on what the other framers have said, I think it is necessary to respect tradition and maintain our symbolic monarchy at this time. The people favor this model of governance, even if such a system of government does not possess real-world political influence. Again, when we as potential senators advance the will of the people, we increase our favorability in their eyes (and, in this case, propping up a symbolic king has no real downside—the king has no political power yet we gain all the favor while retaining power). Bearing this in mind, we should run our government as thought it were a republic.

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WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:I propose we each have 10 points to bid on parts of the constitution we want changed or kept one way. Place more points on things you can't stand, or couldn't live without.

Aye or Nay.

An interesting proposition however I think we should go through every part of the Constitution and then each propose something. We will then have a discussion and then each member will vote. 3 votes will be needed.

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KarbinCry wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:I propose we each have 10 points to bid on parts of the constitution we want changed or kept one way. Place more points on things you can't stand, or couldn't live without.

I feel like that is more conductive to infighting and strategisising (or whatever) than substantive discussion that is necessary, if we are to create a consensual constitution.

I agree--the free exchange of ideas and reason will lead to us implementing the best form of government.

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Nays take it then.

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Gentlemen,

I believe we need to establish a universal list of inalienable rights before we proceed headlong into the minutia of our prospective constitutions.

I think Karbin lists a few great ideas, but they could use expansion. For instance, no society can be free without the protection of free speech.

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PROPOSAL 1: RIGHTS OF THE PEOPLE

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My original rights:

1. Right on ownership of property
2. Right for representation in government
3. Habeas corpus
4. Right to petition the ombudsman

Now, number 4 can be irrelevant, depending on whether we will have an ombudsman.
I would definitely add freedom of speech and assembly.

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KarbinCry wrote:My original rights:

1. Right on ownership of property
2. Right for representation in government
3. Habeas corpus
4. Right to petition the ombudsman

Now, number 4 can be irrelevant, depending on whether we will have an ombudsman.
I would definitely add freedom of speech and assembly.


Agreed I think all of these rights are a given.

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I have no major issue with retaining a constitutional monarchy, provided it is the original line. While the monarchy is favoured now after a lengthy occupation, why should our children and our children's children be burdened with living under an unelected monarch? It is a potentially destabilising force for those in the future, and our own political power should not come at the expense of future governments.

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I take issue with the individual right to ownership of property. How is this right being imagined? And what are its limits?

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I propose the following:

All citizens over the age of 18 (natural born or naturalized) possess the right to vote without obstruction (e.g. no poll tax, no literacy requirement, etc).

All citizens possess the freedom to move within and without the country at their will; at no point, aside from incarceration or under warrant of immediate arrest, shall the government inhibit or prohibit an individual citizen's freedom to move from place to place.

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I have created a separate folder which will lay out the things agreed

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My proposal for rights:

1. Free speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of religion
2. Protection of a person from being compelled to be a witness against himself in a criminal case (as in the 5th amendment to the US constitution)
3. No man can own another (no slavery)
4. Right on ownership of property
5. Right for equal representation in government, regardless of gender, race or religion
6. Habeas corpus

WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:I take issue with the individual right to ownership of property. How is this right being imagined? And what are its limits?

That means a government cannot unduly confiscate property. Meaning that, barring universal direct taxes and court orders (compensation), government, cannot touch your property.



Last edited by KarbinCry on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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KarbinCry wrote:My proposal for rights:

1. Free speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of religion
2. Protection of a person from being compelled to be a witness against himself in a criminal case (as in the 5th amendment to the US constitution)
3. No man can own another (no slavery)
4. Right on ownership of property
5. Right for equal representation in government, regardless of gender, race or religion
6. Habeas corpus


I would add bingcosby7 to the list


All citizens over the age of 18 (natural born or naturalized) possess the right to vote without obstruction (e.g. no poll tax, no literacy requirement, etc).

All citizens possess the freedom to move within and without the country at their will; at no point, aside from incarceration or under warrant of immediate arrest, shall the government inhibit or prohibit an individual citizen's freedom to move from place to place.

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WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:I take issue with the individual right to ownership of property. How is this right being imagined? And what are its limits?

If this were the governmental model, one could orchestrate a mass murder of the monarchical line and render it obsolete, at which point the pure republic would take over; however, if government officials or revolutionaries within the electorate were to orchestrate such a political move, we could potentially find ourselves in a political upheaval—one that could threaten the very existence of our governmental model.

As for the ownership of property, a man cannot be free if his land and abode are mere gifts from the government. If we do not guarantee the ownership of property as an inalienable right, and if the government owns all land and property, then the government has the ability to wantonly repossess land and property from its citizens. This, again, will result in political upheaval, and the citizens will come directly after elected officials.

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Current rights on the table


1. Free speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of religion
2. Protection of a person from being compelled to be a witness against himself in a criminal case (as in the 5th amendment to the US constitution)
3. No man can own another (no slavery)
4. Right on ownership of property
5. Right for equal representation in government, regardless of gender, race or religion
6. Habeas corpus
7. All citizens over the age of 18 (natural born or naturalized) possess the right to vote without obstruction (e.g. no poll tax, no literacy requirement, etc).
8.All citizens possess the freedom to move within and without the country at their will; at no point, aside from incarceration or under warrant of immediate arrest, shall the government inhibit or prohibit an individual citizen's freedom to move from place to place.

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bradley2000 wrote:
KarbinCry wrote:My proposal for rights:

1. Free speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of religion
2. Protection of a person from being compelled to be a witness against himself in a criminal case (as in the 5th amendment to the US constitution)
3. No man can own another (no slavery)
4. Right on ownership of property
5. Right for equal representation in government, regardless of gender, race or religion
6. Habeas corpus


I would add bingcosby7 to the list


All citizens over the age of 18 (natural born or naturalized) possess the right to vote without obstruction (e.g. no poll tax, no literacy requirement, etc).

All citizens possess the freedom to move within and without the country at their will; at no point, aside from incarceration or under warrant of immediate arrest, shall the government inhibit or prohibit an individual citizen's freedom to move from place to place.

I implemented this by changing Right 5. to say "equal representation". However, there should be a document discussing the constitution, as in explaining in depth what everything means. Constitution should be a short, streamlined document; if someone wants to know what an article means, he can consult our Elaboration on it.

EDIT: Bradley2000, your right 8 is not enforcable. We cannot guarantee movement outside our country; what if no country allows acces to our citizenzs? I would rephrase it to say that we, our government, will not obstruct this.

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I would have it noted somewhere that the government retains the right under instances in which public good can be shown empirically to outweigh a landowner's property rights that compensation be paid and ownership be forcibly turned over to the government. Nationalisation of strategic or essential resources, vital infrastructure etc.



Last edited by WhiskeyWhiskers on Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

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This would most likely create anger from the people. The British did this in America and it was one of the leading causes of the revolution.

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KarbinCry wrote:
bradley2000 wrote:
KarbinCry wrote:My proposal for rights:

1. Free speech, freedom of assembly and freedom of religion
2. Protection of a person from being compelled to be a witness against himself in a criminal case (as in the 5th amendment to the US constitution)
3. No man can own another (no slavery)
4. Right on ownership of property
5. Right for equal representation in government, regardless of gender, race or religion
6. Habeas corpus


I would add bingcosby7 to the list


All citizens over the age of 18 (natural born or naturalized) possess the right to vote without obstruction (e.g. no poll tax, no literacy requirement, etc).

All citizens possess the freedom to move within and without the country at their will; at no point, aside from incarceration or under warrant of immediate arrest, shall the government inhibit or prohibit an individual citizen's freedom to move from place to place.

I implemented this by changing Right 5. to say "equal representation". However, there should be a document discussing the constitution, as in explaining in depth what everything means. Constitution should be a short, streamlined document; if someone wants to know what an article means, he can consult our Elaboration on it.

EDIT: Bradley2000, your right 8 is not enforcable. We cannot guarantee movement outside our country; what if no country allows acces to our citizenzs? I would rephrase it to say that we, our government, will not obstruct this.

Agreed--my mistake. The right to movement’s wording in the second half of the sentence is a negative right—that is, a “the government shall not.” Government officials who attempt to inhibit the movement of an individual will be punished by force of the law. We can simply erase the first half of the right and make the right negative in nature.

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