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Committee for Democratic Constitution (Bradley2000, WhiskeyWhiskers, bingcrosby7, KarbinCry, grifinknight)

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Military minimal age should be a governmental thing.

EFU is special, and can only make new facultis by changing the constitution. However, this would be supplemented by larger special departments within faculties. Also, dont forget EFU is supposed to be fairly small; elite.

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KarbinCry wrote:Military minimal age should be a governmental thing.

EFU is special, and can only make new facultis by changing the constitution. However, this would be supplemented by larger special departments within faculties. Also, dont forget EFU is supposed to be fairly small; elite.

This makes sense.

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I am exhausted. Good night and good luck.

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National elections should be a public holiday, and held on weekends to minimise disruption to services.  And guarantee our working class citizens are not made to make the choice between putting food in their family's mouths and representation.

Also on regional ordinances to change electoral systems, while I'm not entirely in disagreement with the change to simple majority with a gubernatorial veto, I oppose that the new system was not highlighted and discussed. As such I vote to make it the 2/3 majority vote by assemblies as was originally agreed.

I also propose water resources be made the purview of the federal government.

Last edited by WhiskeyWhiskers on Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:39 pm; edited 2 times in total

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In case some suspect this squabbling over regional electoral ordinances is simply to solidify the position of local conferences, I would be quick to point out the gubernatorial veto relies on the governor and the majority of the regional assembly being from opposing parties if blatant power grabs that favour the majority party are to be avoided. This goes against the principles we set out for positions such as the presidency working together with a like minded legislature.

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Draft I wrote:Employers must allow employees to take part in all Elections without obstruction or harassment, but do not have to pay wage for the time an employee is not working on the grounds of voting.

This I believe makes it so the Elections don't necessarily have to be a holiday.

As for passing Ordinance, we could do it like so:
Hybrid System wrote:In Town Council system (the default), 2/3 and veto; however, Regions can change that up to a single majority + veto (except for votes where Conts. mentions specifically 2/3 or other ratios).

Because the larger an Assembly becomes (more Reps.), the harder getting 2/3 is, and the more representative (of the People's vote) a simple majority becomes (larger sample size); so a 1:10000 Assembly (ratio Rep:Citizen) is as representative at 2/3 vote as 1:3000 Assembly at 50%+1 vote.

I understand the concern and I apologise for not putting it up for discussion, as my mind was a bit clouded by exhaustion and I focused on bringing the whole draft here.

As for water, I believe that to be under the jurisdictions of Healthcare and Social matters, i.e. in Regional jurisdiction; I would also like to add that most of the regions a divided from the rest by see or thick forest, and thus a unified water distribution system is unlikely.

I would, however, add a National Standards and Patents Office, which would have the right to set what a sufficient standard for water distribution is, even mandating, for example, the exact type (diameter and pressure) of water mains, meaning regional system would be similar enough to combine them should both regions agree to.

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1) Changing “by” in the title to “drafted by”?

2) Maybe adding Democratic in the title so it would be “Democratic Constitution of August 29th “

3) Perhaps replacing the preamble with this:
“In order to establish a democratic and regionalist government for the nation of Echain, we, the citizens of this glorious nation, have placed in order a document that will establish a government whose sole purpose is to protect the interests of the people and regions by creating a system that will provide justice, domestic tranquility, common defense and general welfare to all the citizens of Echain.”

4) Article One seems fine.

5) Article Two seems fine.

6) Article Three – you state, “It is understood that all persons above the age of 17 – that is to say adults – are provided these basic rights by the Government, and all rights except the 5. are awarded to Minors through their legal guardians.”  What do you mean by “the 5”?  I believe a rewording may be necessary in that segment.
Should freedom of press be stated in #1 or does it act under freedom of speech?
Perhaps stating somewhere that no man is above the law is necessary?
Everything else is fine.

7) Article Four – its empty…

Cool Article 5 – On the subject of adding new regions, maybe adding that the region must establish their legislature or something along the lines?  Maybe something else along the lines of a certain population is required?  Another possible requirement could be that the region must vote in joining the government unless it is conquered by our nation?
On the subject of jurisdictions:  Should Military be stated under National due to the fact that “Defense of Echain” might not clearly mean military?  You, also, state under regional jurisdiction “And all other agendas unstated in the Constitution,”  I believe there should be a requirement to this so that any action not approved by the constitution should be approved by the national legislature and constitutional court before it can be enacted in the regional level.

9) Article Seven seems Fine

10) Article 8 – Section A: Why is there a national Lottery?
    Section B: Perhaps stating that the government can only borrow from the National       Bank unless 100% necessary?

You skip from section B to D.

Section D: As stated earlier by Crosby, maybe a faculty of engineering or applied science should be added?
Section J:  Perhaps adding Army instead of Militia to the list of the unified forces underneath the military?  I propose this because Militia usually refers to an armed force raised by a civil populace in order to supplement a regular army in emergency, to engage rebels or terrorists or by law.  Therefore, having a branch of militia and a Militia academy makes little sense and should, instead, be replaced by Army.

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1+2) I don't see any reason for "drafted" being added. As for the name, it isn't, in my opinion, Democratic Constitution, rather Constitution that is Democratic.

3) “In order to establish a Democratic and Regionalist Republic for the People of Echain, We, the People of this glorious Land, have [b]put as a Fundament of Lawfulness this document, to create and safeguard the State which Protects and Serves the interests of its People and its Regions, and that will be Just in exercise of these duties”
I re-wrote some parts, is this good? I honestly did the preamble just so there would be one, intending this to be written later.

6) Good catch, it was supposed to say "the 5th" - i.e. the right to vote. Otherwise, it could be argued, adults would also vote in their wards stead (meaning a mother of o child would first vote for herself and then for her child); this might be a good idea, if we want to do it, though, we will have to clearly limit Guardianship to one person.

7) We did not decide on any Supplementary rights, right? Its there because of the structure.

Cool What about rephrasing it to: "New regions can be added only by adding them to the Constitution alongside the others." - that means then everything pertaining to old Regions must also be true in the new one.
Also, we should add something like: "Herein are the respective Regions borders: (OOC: a description of this map) and then the map of Echain with all hexes coloured by regions" before the admittance clause, with another clause saying: "No Land ruled or dependant upon Echain might lie outside a Region for longer than a year".
This does several things: 1) it prohibits colonialism; 2) any Land outside a Region would break the constitution, and this fixes that, as well as 3) We say Southport, but what is Southport region? The map should be done, or signed off on, by Arche, so the populations fit.
As for the vote, that is handled by the fact adding the region means changing the constitution. I can't see why and how any splitting of an existing region without locals supporting it would pass. Otherwise, new land may be acquired by treaty (peace conditions or peaceful submission), in which case it is a change of Const AND an International Treaty.

10) "The dispersal of newly minted Espada can be done in three ways: [...] Through the National Lottery, which is a non-profit subsidiary of the National Bank. The lottery must include all citizens and the highest win can only be fourth of the dispersed capital."
That's there because always distributing equally and to all would be too costly. This way, not everyone has to be given the new money, and those who are have to go to NatLot HQ (also, I would make NatLot HQ the same as the NatBank - where will we put NatBank?)

As for borrowing from the Bank, this is done in reverse: Bank can choose to give money to the Gov. That is so because Bank will be at least 1/2 purely run by experts (after Provisional measure ticks off)

Lettering was corrected and Military switch with Inteligence (so Intelligence i Section I  Laughing )

I added Engineering. After we discuss the changes we currently discus, I will upload second draft with all of them.

As for militia, here is my problem and how I see the military be effiecently set up for now.

We cannot have strictly separated branches, like the US (Army, Navy,...), because we are too small for each to be capable of action, and because navy is much more important than army is, right now (island nation).
Then, we have navy (obvious), marines (invasive force, named because ALL soldiers not fighting on Echain will have to be transported by boat - sufficiently big transport airforce is much more harder to acquire and maintain than naval one of same capacity - thus having them as marines, that is used to that, is good), airforce and the last part is supposed to be land-based defence force, and militia, thus named because <OOC> in my language we have the word "domobrana", literally translated to "homes-defence" or "home-defence"; unfortunately, the word translates to militia in English. I don't know what is more appropriate, from a native speaker's perspective, to get my point across (that is that it is a defensive and Echain-locked force), and will happily submit to a native speaker's perspective on this, however, isn't there some other word than Army that would serve better?</OOC> I agree we should add "standing", or "capable of action" (this would necessite temporary exemption in Provisional measures).

EDIT: ad6) - freedom of press will be added to Elaborations as being an extension of free speech; "no man is above law" - right 6: "All people shall enjoy equality before law", so yeah, technically 1 man could be above law, but then all would have to be, so, why don't I add that all citizens must submit to the law in article two?

Also, we should add to Elaborations that every part of the Const that is stated in Article Two that it cannot be changed, or only subtracted or only added to, protects this statement, so it cannot be changed.

And I will also post what I will add/change from the stuff agreed upon previously, since I didnt consult some earlier decisions (mea culpa)

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Added older agreed upon stuff:
1) Freedom of speech contains freedom of press
Freedom of property protects against targeting specific groups; it does not protect against universal direct taxes and punishments based on the criminal code

to Elaborations

2) Limitations of jury system to non-criminal with exception of treason, sedition, rebellion: 3 votes against 0
As jury system may be used only in pursuit of the Civil Code (so it is for the Gov Nat/Reg to decide whether to use them or not in their respective judiciaries)

This also means we will have to constitutionally differentiate civil and criminal code

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1+2) It was just a proposal.

3) That seems good.

6) I think we should just leave children unable to vote and their parents/guardians unable to vote for them because that could lead to abuse of the vote of children on the part of the parents/guardians.

7) Should we start discussing that then?

8)I agree with everything.

10) Everything seems fine and understandable. From my perspective, i just wasn't sure if you were treating the Militia as an army, since the army isn't clearly stated, or just a defense force. If possible, I would state this in the elaborations.

Everything else should be fine and in running order. If i remember anything that should be included, I will make sure to inform you.

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Is it stated in the constitution that the form of currency is decided on my the National bank?
Also, Should the formation of an exchange be in the constitution?

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Bank has 100% control how they do Espada.

Stock exchange was discussed and rejected

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I was not referring to a Stock exchange, which would be fundamental in our economy, but a currency exchange.

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Since someone could now start looking for a NEW heir, we should also do a monarchist version, and submit them both to the vote.

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KarbinCry wrote:Since someone could now start looking for a NEW heir, we should also do a monarchist version, and submit them both to the vote.

I dont think that is necessary. I believe that Zeiss was the last member of the royal family and he is now dead. We should continue on our current tracks, but if the necessity arises, we should draft a monarchist version...

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Tomorrow is the day we require to finalize and present the constitution. I believe we should finish finalizing the constitution today and have Crosby with the simplified version tomorrow.
(OOC: it seems like he has not been online at all today)

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What did you mean by currency exchange?

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Like an establishment run by the national bank that would exchange currency(for example, US dollars are useless in europe so people go to an exchange to trade in US dollars for euros). This would be necessary if we ever decide to change our form of currency to bills or any other form.

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OOC: Sorry guys, but it looks like I won't be able to be active on this forum for all of today and during parts of Sunday. Something has come up, at a terribly inopportune time of course. I'll do my best to check on the forum in the meantime, but you more than likely won't see me participating. Sorry! If anything crazy happens, PM me.

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Bing Crosby wrote:OOC: Sorry guys, but it looks like I won't be able to be active on this forum for all of today and during parts of Sunday. Something has come up, at a terribly inopportune time of course. I'll do my best to check on the forum in the meantime, but you more than likely won't see me participating. Sorry! If anything crazy happens, PM me.

OOC: It's okay, good luck in your endeavors.

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I propose that you grifenknight, should you be willing to, start with the Abbreviation from the current draft (easier to change something than to write it in the first place).

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I would be willing to, but is the constitution finalized?

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OOC: Also, have you approached Lore about marking the regions?

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No, but if you make an abb. of this draft, it will then be easier to change the abb. with const.

I will upload current version, as there are some untracked changes; from now on, such changes will be marked by colouring.

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I will await the arrival of the current drafted constitution.

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