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PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA)

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1 PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:31 pm

Zeiss founds the Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA), a government agency responsible for the collection, analysis, and exploitation of information and intelligence in support of law enforcement, national security, and foreign policy objectives. These are uncertain times, and there is an urgent need to protect ourselves from domestic and foreign threats who could very well use this period of political unrest to advance their private agenda. Zeiss assures every concerned citizen that the agency will place itself under the authority of the Echaini government once it is elected.

The EIA has already set up temporary offices across the country, including more permanent headquarters in City Central, more specifically in one of the old buildings used by the Japanese occupation forces to administer the country. Its members are mostly comprised of former rebel fighters, but the agency is already approaching several of the civilians who facilitated the previous military government in a effort to recruit them and put their expertise to work.

Current tasks of the EIA:

  • Recruit new agents into the agency. Looking for people with an analytic mind, and a patriotic heart.
  • Seize the Japanese assets that haven't been claimed by the representatives of the provisional government, with the intention of safeguarding them until a government is elected. EDIT: by Japanese assets, I mean those of Yokoi's previous regime.
  • Investigate the documents of the military government, and interrogate the collaborators.
  • Protect the collaborators from persecution, if there is any.
  • Put a bureaucracy in place that will ease the transition of power once a government is elected.




Last edited by Zeiss on Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:37 am; edited 4 times in total

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I most vehemently decry this unilateral action taken without even seeking consent of the People nor of even the Provisional Government, this onesided and unjustified privatisation of State powers and responsibilities arguably no individual nor private organisation should ever have, and demand that EIA ceases its unlawful actions, specifically seizure of Japanese assets, as this without a legal framework amounts to nothing more than a racially-motivated Theft and the interrogation of "collaborators", or, better said, kidnapping and possible torture, as well as their protection, should that be unrequested and intrusive.
Finally I demand that EIA fully will submit to a Constitution, no matter which one shall be elected, even if that results in its dissolution, renaming, or split.

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OOC: you kinda lack a government to make you agency part off. This would have been better if you waited for an actual government to be established and notified people of your decision.

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OOC: in Zeiss' defense, you can create a private spy network in the absence of government because nothing his stopping him from doing so. You can even create a spy network in the presence of a government; one would just have to be a bit more covert about it. I'm sure Zeiss is able to conduct covert ops whose results would depend on Arche's RNG, etc, but I'm also sure Arche as GM has other variables that factor into intelligence gathering.

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The EIA is acting under the Constitution proposed by Zeiss until one is voted upon by the rebel leaders.

We also do not appreciate the accusations that we may harm the collaborators of the previous regime; we merely want to understand the inner workings of this government, and how we can use this knowledge to help the transition of power for our own elected government. In fact, we are making a point of protecting these same collaborators from any harm they might come under from resentful citizens.

There is also an urgent need to seize the Japanese assets before scavengers and looters do the same.

OOC:

To grifenknight: "Zeiss assures every concerned citizen that the agency will place itself under the authority of the Echani government once it is elected."

To Bing Crosby: Yeah, I also asked Arch on stream what were my options. This was one of them.

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In other words, a private intelligence organisation, lead by Zeiss, has chosen one of the proposals for constitution as its "legal" framework, which, surely by sheer happenstance, was written by Zeiss, to commit quite likely immoral and unethical actions - defending them on merit of their goals, rather than ethicality of methods used, which is quite telling - without even seeking the approval of the People or the Provisional Government, without even waiting for a proper and truly legal, that is to say, not arbitrarily chosen by one man, framework was recklessly created.

No Mr. Crosby is right. Nothing is technically legally stopping Mr. Zeiss from this nigh-tyrannical power-grab, but even in absence of laws of state, there are ethics and morals, which are being treaded upon by these actions.

And just to reiterate, goals don't matter. It doesn't matter that EIA would be kidnapping people against their will, if necessary to "protect" them.
Kidnapping is still a kidnapping, no matter what it is used for.
If someone asks for protection, fine, but forced protection is not protection.

I call again for EIA to suspend any and all unethical actions as detailed in my first response, as well as any further initiatives in the same spirit, as well as formerly commits to submit to a Constitution once one will be elected by Echain.

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There is no "forced" protection. Feel free to observe the EIA's actions yourself if you are so alarmed.

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I will cite from the mission statement provided by your "Echaini" Intelligence Agency:

1) Seize the Japanese assets that haven't been claimed by the representatives of the provisional government, with the intention of safeguarding them until a government is elected.
2) Investigate the documents of the military government, and interrogate the collaborators.

Am I to believe all Japanese residing on our isles surrender voluntarily and uncoercedly their possesion?
Am I to believe all "collaborators" voluntarily and uncoercedly surrendered their freedom and let themselves be subjected to interrogation by your agents (now little more than thugs, dare I say).

The truth is you unilaterally usurped powers that should ethically rest with the State, currently represented by the Provisional Government, and expect us to believe in you benevolence and impartiallity.

These are not actions of a Democrat, these are actions of a populist Tyrant or a rash action of an impatient man.

If the second is true, and I hope it is, I urge you to have some patience; after all, Constitution Election is but few days away.

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By Japanese assets, I mean those used by the previous regime lead by Yokoi; documents, weapons caches, etc. The citizens who are originally Japanese keep all of their possessions.

The EIA is also acting under the Consitution put forward by me until one is voted in. That same constitution prevents any arrest that could be considered unlawful by any reasonable citizen. Instead of accusing me and the organization I helped create, please at least judge me on the results of those actions, and not on the worst case scenario that you are imagining. I don't want yo to believe in the intentions of the EIA, but witness their effects on this country instead.


I find it deplorable that you think so little of me and the members of the EIA; we are doing our best to protect the citizens of our nation.

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10 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:28 pm

Then write "assets of former Occupation Government", and allow for its cataloguing and inventory to the entire Provisional Government.

With regards to your "legal" precepts, first of all, it could be argued that, by choosing one of the proposed constitution to act according to, EIA usurps a portion of constitution-giving powers from the People, and secondly, who is to ensure you and your organisation follows those rules?

Ultimately, I see these actions as merely misguided, but, especially in these first days of our fledgling Independence, we must take any whiff of Tyranny, be it intentional or not, as the gravest threat.
Even you are benevolent, as you say, if you usurp the powers you usurped, you set a precedent for anyone to do so - and amongst them might be true Dictators.

Is it worth it, for mere three days? In three days, we will have a proper Constitution, we will have proper Law.

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11 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:35 pm

It is apparent that neither of us will budge from our position, so I suggest that we stop this debate since there is no end in sight.

I believe you also have a Constitution to write.


OOC:
This is all in-character, of course.

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12 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:39 pm

I have a proposed constitution to write, but that proposal will be written in vain if we allow anyone to, knowingly or not, exploit the current lack of a Constitution to pursue unjustifiable actions.

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13 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:39 pm

Axecack Enterprises wishes to congratulate Zeiss on his forward thinking in the establishment of our new intelligence sector. We at AE believe that Echain cannot afford to close its eyes and ears to the world around us. So long as Echainian Intelligence Agency finds peaceful integration into our new burgeoning government, we at AE cannot see much harm coming of this that will not be outweighed by the enormous benefits of an active intelligence community.

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14 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:44 pm

axecack wrote:Axecack Enterprises wishes to congratulate Zeiss on his forward thinking in the establishment of our new intelligence sector. We at AE believe that Echain cannot afford to close its eyes and ears to the world around us. So long as Echainian Intelligence Agency finds peaceful integration into our new burgeoning government, we at AE cannot see much harm coming of this that will not be outweighed by the enormous benefits of an active intelligence community.

In response to Cry:

I agree with this. As long as he doesn't do anything that could harm the nation or our proposed governments then i see no harm in this matter. He has already stated that he would peacefully integrate into the selected on government. As you said, there are only 3 days left until the constitution is decided on, so this should not be a matter of much concern.

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15 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:49 pm

If we leave someone with unchecked and unjustly gained, indeed little more than just grabbed, power even in those three days, the damage such person could, even unknowingly, do is too big to let something like this happen.

By this I declare that I and anyone who might wish to join me, will actively obstruct and even fight against the EIA until it ceases its actions I consider unethical and dangerously potentially tyrannical.

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16 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:13 am

I agree with KarbinCry, this action is at best dangerously incompetent. Do we really want the intelligence section of our government to be founded and run by an individual beholden to nothing and no one?
        What kind of government would we be if we allowed a irresponsible, unaccountable intelligence division to set up before the dust has settled on the previous despots?
          I for one will not stand for this! I will not allow opportunists to bleed the country dry before it is even born!

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The Echain Post has come out with our special report on this story. Citizens should head there for a summary and analysis of the debate:

http://speedrun4fun.forumotion.com/t1396-public-the-echain-post-your-first-last-and-only-stop-for-the-truth#17570


THE ECHAIN POST

Your First, Last, and Only Stop for the Truth

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18 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:37 am

If zeiss had any wishes of ill will for our country, do you really believe he would have so blatantly stated the formation of his organization? NO! Had there been ill will, Zeiss would be acting against us in a discreet manner. If he was an opportunist, would he state that he would incorporate himself into any government decided by the constitutional vote? NO! He would be secretly rigging the vital vote that will occur in three days. If he wanted power, he would have taken the throne when the nation was in need of a leader, but what did he do? He gave the power to the people in order for them to decide the fate of their own nation. I understand your fear of a tyrannical power taking root in our nation, but the EIA is nowhere near powerful enough to pull that off. Especially with the fact that Zeiss is the only member in the organization. He has stated clearly before in the past that his only want in this government is the ability to head the department of intelligence. There is no sense of greed or lust for power in this man, he is just attempting to help this wounded nation. It is your choice now, will you continue your campaign against this harmless organization or will you finally understand that there is no ill will presented in the establishment of this organization? If you continue your calls against the EIA, know that the IEP(International Echain party) is behind him. Will you push further the gap between our parties or will you compromise and allow us to all help our Glorious Nation?

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19 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:46 am

KarbinCry wrote:If we leave someone with unchecked and unjustly gained, indeed little more than just grabbed, power even in those three days, the damage such person could, even unknowingly, do is too big to let something like this happen.

By this I declare that I and anyone who might wish to join me, will actively obstruct and even fight against the EIA until it ceases its actions I consider unethical and dangerously potentially tyrannical.

Aye. I do be lendin' my support against the EIA, actin' as a pseudo-gov'ment agency, actin' outside o' the provisional gov'ment, and takin' advantage o' the current transition period.

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20 Re: PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA) on Fri Jan 06, 2017 12:53 am

I do not care for his intentions, I care for his actions, and, in my eyes, regardless of whether intentionally or not, they are dangerous.
Besides, a true tyrant making hid tyranny public from the get-go is not necesarilly a bad strategy, since he can defend himself by that fact, as you defend Zeiss, and most sinisterly normalize his tyranny.

I will only accept following compromise:
  • End to any involuntary detaining or interrogation of people for any reason
  • Submitting any treasure gained via confiscation from the property of the Occupational Government to the Provisional Government by giving it list of confiscated items and justification for their seizure and their storage location, as well as giving Provisional Gov'ment the powe to, without notice, at any time inspect and make inventory at any of these storage locations
  • Stop recognizing any document as some sort of "temporary constitution"
  • Formal submission to the Constitution, once in effect, even in cases that enacting such Constitution results in dissolution, renaming, or splitting of EIA

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A announcement of an organization that seeks to target people and property of the old oppressors of this country is a very intelligent decision to make. Why keep a spy network secret when the risk of exposure is ever present? It is far better to reveal yourself during a volitile period and gain the trust of the populace by seeking revenge against people who are seen as the last reminders of the despots.
                   Also a heir of a long since finished dynasty would have more popular support than any other man by himself, as evidenced by certain people's blind trust in this man, thus allowing a populist, vigilante organization to sprout up, in complete disregard of the democratic process!

           I will only be satisfied by the dissolution of this opportunist organization and the concession of any and all materials already gathered by him or his organization.

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Where is this advantage he is taking? He gains nothing from the establishment of the EIA. He is acting outside of the provisional government because the government is nothing as long as it lasts without a true constitution that unifies the isles together. Even when that mark is reached, Zeiss has agreed to conforming to the new government. I am truly unable to spot the so-called "opportunism," "advantage-grabbing," and "tyranny" that is "present" in the establishment of this organization. Every accusation so far has just flung meaningless garbage at an organization that can truly do nothing with ONE member.

KarbinCry calls for a compromise, but many of these compromises are for actions that have not occurred yet. He calls for the stop of interrogations, submission of confiscated materials and a formal submission to the constitution once it is established. The organization was only established recently, a mere few days ago(OOC: I do not believe we have established the time in game compared to the time irl yet), yet KarbinCry calls for the end of actions that have not occurred yet as zeiss has informed me. The third statement calls for the end of the recognition of a "temporary constitution. If he is not to follow a set of guidelines that we have available to access, what is he supposed to follow? Should he produce his own rules as the days progress until our constitution is finalized? I believe that the following of a temporary constitution is the best course of action for an agency such as this. The last statement is the formal submission to a decided upon constitution which Zeiss has stated many times he would do. Clearly, you people are not reading everything presented to you.

Chaos_Ryder states that he is doing this in order to gain support and disregard the democratic process under the name of a populist. If that was the case, Zeiss would have taken control of the nation long ago. The majority of the population was willing to return to the previous monarchy, but what did Zeiss do? He gave the government to the people. If that is not an act against tyranny and monarchy, then i dont know what is.

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He is exercising power which he was not granted by neither the People, nor the Provisional government, notably power to incarcerate people and confiscate funds.

We cannot discern his motives, and there are quite a few ways ho he can profit - he can pocket a part of the confiscated property. He could detain and torture people he doesn't like. It doesn't matter whether he will or will not do these things, the issue he could if we allow him to operate, not to mention that following such precedent others could do the same, some even with nefarious goals in mind.

These actions I call for compromise in, are clearly stated as things the EIA will do, which means, actions EIA claims to have the right to do.

As for "temporary constitution", the first problem is that there is no body that can oversee fulfilment of these rules and hold EIA acountable by them, the second that by doing so, he is in effect elevating one of the proposed constitutions above the rest before the vote.

And while Zeiss said he would do so, but I want it to be codified in EIA's mission statement, so that EIA will be forced to do so, and it will not depend on Zeiss's will.

I mean, your constant defence of Zeiss on grounds that he gave up power and thus is fit to wield the powers he practically usurped is the prime example of my issue. No man is more equal than the others, and no man should have, in and of himself, more power then the next, yet you and Zeiss, quite possibly unintentionally and accidentally, claim otherwise; claim that Zeiss is somehow special and entitled to these powers by virtue of his abdication of royal seat or some such.

OOC: I believe time is to move in 1:1 RL:Game time turns with one RL week being a game turn that is 1 week long



Last edited by KarbinCry on Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Oh please, by abdicating the Throne he gains support of more people that would respect him for such a move ( I did)  also he gains the ability to move freely about the country in a low profile and directly handle information that could be used to blackmail and threaten hundreds.
                         Also I take offense at a comment of yours, Zeiss did NOT give the government to the people! It belonged to them when they decided to revolt and drive out the despots that controlled this great nation! The fact that you would deny the Blood these men and women spent to wrest their land from invaders is Shameful!
                         The Government of the island belonged to the people during the time of kings and before. A Leader, king or not,  does not GIVE power to anyone, the leader RECIVES power from his people

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Chaos_Ryder wrote:                        Oh please, by abdicating the Throne he gains support of more people that would respect him for such a move ( I did)  also he gains the ability to move freely about the country in a low profile and directly handle information that could be used to blackmail and threaten hundreds.
                         Also I take offense at a comment of yours, Zeiss did NOT give the government to the people! It belonged to them when they decided to revolt and drive out the despots that controlled the great nation! The fact that you would deny the Blood these men and women spent to wrest their land from invaders is Shameful!
                         The Government of the island belonged to the people during the time of kings and before. A Leader, king or not,  does not GIVEpower to anyone, the king RECIVES power from his people

The people fought to liberate themselves from the Japanese, not to establish their own government. Most would have agreed to placing Zeiss back on the throne had he not left the reign to the people. The facts you state are clearly wrong as well. We did not revolt against any despot for the control of our nation, but we fought against a foreign occupations that was oppressing, raping and abusing the people of our nation. That is why we rose up. I would know, I lost my whole family to this cause. Do not tell me of why the people decided to revolt and that i shame the men and women who spilt their blood for this nation because i was right along side them, giving my life and soul for this cause. Meanwhile, a leader has his power given from the people, but your shocking lack of knowledge about the people scares me. The people were ready to give power to Zeiss on a silver platter if need be. That is what makes Zeiss's action even greater. He gave away his heritage and power in order to establish a government for the people of Echain.

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