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PUBLIC The Echaini Intelligence Agency (EIA)

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To previous questions:

  • End to any involuntary detaining or interrogation of people for any reason. We're not detaining or interrogating people without their consent. We're even working with some of them now. [Ask GM for confirmation.]
  • Submitting any treasure gained via confiscation from the property of the Occupational Government to the Provisional Government by giving it list of confiscated items and justification for their seizure and their storage location, as well as giving Provisional Gov'ment the powe to, without notice, at any time inspect and make inventory at any of these storage location. I made the thread Public so people could see what the EIA seized. The elected government will obviously gain possession of said assets, since I did promise to have the organization put itself under the authority of said government.
  • Stop recognizing any document as some sort of "temporary constitution". Better to have this organization act under a temporary Constitution than none at all.
  • Formal submission to the Constitution, once in effect, even in cases that enacting such Constitution results in dissolution, renaming, or splitting of EIA. Already said the EIA would respect the authority of an elected government.

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KarbinCry wrote:He is exercising power which he was not granted by neither the People, nor the Provisional government, notably power to incarcerate people and confiscate funds.

We cannot discern his motives, and there are quite a few ways ho he can profit - he can pocket a part of the confiscated property. He could detain and torture people he doesn't like. It doesn't matter whether he will or will not do these things, the issue he could if we allow him to operate, not to mention that following such precedent others could do the same, some even with nefarious goals in mind.

These actions I call for compromise in, are clearly stated as things the EIA will do, which means, actions EIA claims to have the right to do.

As for "temporary constitution", the first problem is that there is no body that can oversee fulfilment of these rules and hold EIA acountable by them, the second that by doing so, he is in effect elevating one of the proposed constitutions above the rest before the vote.

And while Zeiss said he would do so, but I want it to be codified in EIA's mission statement, so that EIA will be forced to do so, and it will not depend on Zeiss's will.

I mean, your constant defence of Zeiss on grounds that he gave up power and thus is fit to wield the powers he practically usurped is the prime example of my issue. No man is more equal than the others, and no man should have, in and of himself, more power then the next, yet you and Zeiss, quite possibly unintentionally and accidentally, claim otherwise; claim that Zeiss is somehow special and entitled to these powers by virtue of his abdication of royal seat or some such.

OOC: I believe time is to move in 1:1 RL:Game time turns with one RL week being a game turn that is 1 week long

I believe it would be the best course of action for Zeiss to follow this compromise until the constitution is finalized. I would just like the state the necessity of and intelligence agency in our new government. Therefore, I would like to add something to the compromise. That the EIA should be given a place among the newly established government unless the constitution clearly states that an intelligence agency is not required and that all manners of intelligence will be run the the 3 branches. Unless you have any further responses or arguments, i believe this to be the best course of action.

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I hate to reiterate myself, but:

Your constant defence of Zeiss on grounds that he gave up power and thus is fit to wield the powers he practically usurped is the prime example of my issue. No man is more equal than the others, and no man should have, in and of himself, more power then the next, yet you and Zeiss, quite possibly unintentionally and accidentally, claim otherwise; claim that Zeiss is somehow special and entitled to these powers by virtue of his abdication of royal seat or some such.

No man, no matter how just, should wield power without the agreement of the People and without limitations.

Enlightened Despot is still a Despot!

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grifenknight wrote:

The people fought to liberate themselves from the Japanese, not to establish their own government.  Most would have agreed to placing Zeiss back on the throne had he not left the reign to the people.  The facts you state are clearly wrong as well.  We did not revolt against any despot for the control of our nation, but we fought against a foreign occupations that was oppressing, raping and abusing the people of our nation.  That is why we rose up.  I would know,  I lost my whole family to this cause.  Do not tell me of why the people decided to revolt and that i shame the men and women who spilt their blood for this nation because i was right along side them, giving my life and soul for this cause.  Meanwhile, a leader has his power given from the people, but your shocking lack of knowledge about the people scares me.  The people were ready to give power to Zeiss on a silver platter if need be.  That is what makes Zeiss's action even greater.  He gave away his heritage and power in order to establish a government for the people of Echain.

Zeiss e'en admitted in an interview that 'e only abdicated the throne because 'e 'eard 'e was goin' to be made into a figurehead.

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I admitted that I abdicated the throne because I was going to be made a figurehead and told how to act for the rest of my life. And if my cooperation was impossible to get, there was the option to have me eliminated.

I feared for my freedom, and my life.

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Zeiss wrote:To previous questions:

  • End to any involuntary detaining or interrogation of people for any reason. We're not detaining or interrogating people without their consent. We're even working with some of them now. [Ask GM for confirmation.]
  • Submitting any treasure gained via confiscation from the property of the Occupational Government to the Provisional Government by giving it list of confiscated items and justification for their seizure and their storage location, as well as giving Provisional Gov'ment the powe to, without notice, at any time inspect and make inventory at any of these storage location. I made the thread Public so people could see what the EIA seized. The elected government will obviously gain possession of said assets, since I did promise to have the organization put itself under the authority of said government.
  • Stop recognizing any document as some sort of "temporary constitution". Better to have this organization act under a temporary Constitution than none at all.
  • Formal submission to the Constitution, once in effect, even in cases that enacting such Constitution results in dissolution, renaming, or splitting of EIA. Already said the EIA would respect the authority of an elected government.


I will quote the EIA mission statement:

  • Recruit new agents into the agency. Looking for people with an analytic mind, and a patriotic heart.
  • Seize the Japanese assets that haven't been claimed by the representatives of the provisional government, with the intention of safeguarding them until a government is elected.
  • Investigate the documents of the military government, and interrogate the collaborators.
  • Protect the collaborators from persecution, if there is any.
  • Put a bureaucracy in place that will ease the transition of power once a government is elected.


I demand the points I raised be part of this mission statement directly, so that EIA is forced to follow them.

My arguments for my points:

1) detaining and interrogation
To me, they are in the current goals EIA has under points 3) and 4)

2) confiscated treasure
Then we demand the mission statement contains the need to disclose any confiscated treasure along with reasoning for confiscation and information on where it is stored, as well as allowing the Provisional Government to make inspectoral visits without notice at any time in these storage locations

3) "temporary constitution"
the first problem is that there is no body that can oversee fulfilment of these rules and hold EIA acountable by them, the second that by doing so, he is in effect elevating one of the proposed constitutions above the rest before the vote.
Instead let the conduct of EIA be under scrutiny of the Provisional Government, and allow for inspections of EIA's work in action in the same manner as inspection of confiscated goods.

4) submission to Constitution, once a proper one is in place
Nevertheless, we demand that this be a part of EIA mission statement.

In closing, I take no quarrel with you personally, and believe that you did what you thought just, but in so doing, you have overstepped the bounds and proposed a certain kind of despotism which I simply cannot tolerate.

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KarbinCry wrote:
Zeiss wrote:To previous questions:

  • End to any involuntary detaining or interrogation of people for any reason. We're not detaining or interrogating people without their consent. We're even working with some of them now. [Ask GM for confirmation.]
  • Submitting any treasure gained via confiscation from the property of the Occupational Government to the Provisional Government by giving it list of confiscated items and justification for their seizure and their storage location, as well as giving Provisional Gov'ment the powe to, without notice, at any time inspect and make inventory at any of these storage location. I made the thread Public so people could see what the EIA seized. The elected government will obviously gain possession of said assets, since I did promise to have the organization put itself under the authority of said government.
  • Stop recognizing any document as some sort of "temporary constitution". Better to have this organization act under a temporary Constitution than none at all.
  • Formal submission to the Constitution, once in effect, even in cases that enacting such Constitution results in dissolution, renaming, or splitting of EIA. Already said the EIA would respect the authority of an elected government.


I will quote the EIA mission statement:

  • Recruit new agents into the agency. Looking for people with an analytic mind, and a patriotic heart.
  • Seize the Japanese assets that haven't been claimed by the representatives of the provisional government, with the intention of safeguarding them until a government is elected.
  • Investigate the documents of the military government, and interrogate the collaborators.
  • Protect the collaborators from persecution, if there is any.
  • Put a bureaucracy in place that will ease the transition of power once a government is elected.


I demand the points I raised be part of this mission statement directly, so that EIA is forced to follow them.

My arguments for my points:

1) detaining and interrogation
To me, they are in the current goals EIA has under points 3) and 4)

2) confiscated treasure
Then we demand the mission statement contains the need to disclose any confiscated treasure along with reasoning for confiscation and information on where it is stored, as well as allowing the Provisional Government to make inspectoral visits without notice at any time in these storage locations

3) "temporary constitution"
the first problem is that there is no body that can oversee fulfilment of these rules and hold EIA acountable by them, the second that by doing so, he is in effect elevating one of the proposed constitutions above the rest before the vote.
Instead let the conduct of EIA be under scrutiny of the Provisional Government, and allow for inspections of EIA's work in action in the same manner as inspection of confiscated goods.

4) submission to Constitution, once a proper one is in place
Nevertheless, we demand that this be a part of EIA mission statement.

In closing, I take no quarrel with you personally, and believe that you did what you thought just, but in so doing, you have overstepped the bounds and proposed a certain kind of despotism which I simply cannot tolerate.

I see this as understandable.

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KarbinCry wrote:I hate to reiterate myself, but:

Your constant defence of Zeiss on grounds that he gave up power and thus is fit to wield the powers he practically usurped is the prime example of my issue. No man is more equal than the others, and no man should have, in and of himself, more power then the next, yet you and Zeiss, quite possibly unintentionally and accidentally, claim otherwise; claim that Zeiss is somehow special and entitled to these powers by virtue of his abdication of royal seat or some such.

No man, no matter how just, should wield power without the agreement of the People and without limitations.

Enlightened Despot is still a Despot!

This is for the statements from a bit earlier:

Where did i claim that Zeiss is fit to wield the power he usurped? I am just stating that while you call him a "tyrant," he is currently in a harmless position that shows neither greed nor lust for power. As i stated earlier, i believe the best course of action for Zeiss is to accept the compromise with the addition of my statement. I agree that no man should wield power outside the agreement of the people, but the EIA lacks any power. They have the ability to go and commit these acts even without an established organization, but instead Zeiss decided to follow a temporary constitution instead of running rampart. While i am not stating that these acts are good, your accusations of him doing this for power, property and money befuddle me. You claim that it is outside the government, yet there is no government. Following your logic, why should anyone follow the government we establish, how do you know that the majority of the population will agree with the constitution we decide on? For that to happen, we would require a national election for the constitution. If you agree to that, then following your logic, i should be happy to live under this government. If you dont agree, that makes your government null since the people do not have a choice in this, therefore the power to govern is not given to the government by the people, but instead taken from them.

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grifenknight wrote:
KarbinCry wrote:I hate to reiterate myself, but:

Your constant defence of Zeiss on grounds that he gave up power and thus is fit to wield the powers he practically usurped is the prime example of my issue. No man is more equal than the others, and no man should have, in and of himself, more power then the next, yet you and Zeiss, quite possibly unintentionally and accidentally, claim otherwise; claim that Zeiss is somehow special and entitled to these powers by virtue of his abdication of royal seat or some such.

No man, no matter how just, should wield power without the agreement of the People and without limitations.

Enlightened Despot is still a Despot!

This is for the statements from a bit earlier:

Where did i claim that Zeiss is fit to wield the power he usurped?  I am just stating that while you call him a "tyrant," he is currently in a harmless position that shows neither greed nor lust for power.  As i stated earlier, i believe the best course of action for Zeiss is to accept the compromise with the addition of my statement.  I agree that no man should wield power outside the agreement of the people, but the EIA lacks any power.  They have the ability to go and commit these acts even without an established organization, but instead Zeiss decided to follow a temporary constitution instead of running rampart.  While i am not stating that these acts are good, your accusations of him doing this for power, property and money befuddle me.  You claim that it is outside the government, yet there is no government.  Following your logic, why should anyone follow the government we establish,  how do you know that the majority of the population will agree with the constitution we decide on?  For that to happen, we would require a national election for the constitution.  If you agree to that, then following your logic, i should be happy to live under this government.  If you dont agree, that makes your government null since the people do not have a choice in this, therefore the power to govern is not given to the government by the people, but instead taken from them.

But there do be a provisional gov'ment. E' could o' asked representatives o' the various regions o' Echain for approval o' a temporary agency but 'e did no' do that.

It be certainly no' 'armless. It be arguably the most powerful paramil'tary in Echain right now, and certainly the most organized.

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Mark my words this is the first step down a very dangerous road. This is the beginning of a band of roving death squads. First they came for the Japanese.

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MegaZeroX wrote:
grifenknight wrote:
KarbinCry wrote:I hate to reiterate myself, but:

Your constant defence of Zeiss on grounds that he gave up power and thus is fit to wield the powers he practically usurped is the prime example of my issue. No man is more equal than the others, and no man should have, in and of himself, more power then the next, yet you and Zeiss, quite possibly unintentionally and accidentally, claim otherwise; claim that Zeiss is somehow special and entitled to these powers by virtue of his abdication of royal seat or some such.

No man, no matter how just, should wield power without the agreement of the People and without limitations.

Enlightened Despot is still a Despot!

This is for the statements from a bit earlier:

Where did i claim that Zeiss is fit to wield the power he usurped?  I am just stating that while you call him a "tyrant," he is currently in a harmless position that shows neither greed nor lust for power.  As i stated earlier, i believe the best course of action for Zeiss is to accept the compromise with the addition of my statement.  I agree that no man should wield power outside the agreement of the people, but the EIA lacks any power.  They have the ability to go and commit these acts even without an established organization, but instead Zeiss decided to follow a temporary constitution instead of running rampart.  While i am not stating that these acts are good, your accusations of him doing this for power, property and money befuddle me.  You claim that it is outside the government, yet there is no government.  Following your logic, why should anyone follow the government we establish,  how do you know that the majority of the population will agree with the constitution we decide on?  For that to happen, we would require a national election for the constitution.  If you agree to that, then following your logic, i should be happy to live under this government.  If you dont agree, that makes your government null since the people do not have a choice in this, therefore the power to govern is not given to the government by the people, but instead taken from them.

But there do be a provisional gov'ment. E' could o' asked representatives o' the various regions o' Echain for approval o' a temporary agency but 'e did no' do that.

It be certainly no' 'armless. It be arguably the most powerful paramil'tary in Echain right now, and certainly the most organized.

As i stated, there is a provisional government, but it lacks any power until a constitution is finalized and decided on by the people. The only other alternative is to have the people choose their delegates and send them to vote on the finalized constitutions because the people must decide on the constitution if we want the people to grant power to the new government.

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WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Mark my words this is the first step down a very dangerous road. This is the beginning of a band of roving death squads. First they came for the Japanese.

Again with the meaningless words that only inspire panic and threats. Where in does it state that the EIA will go after all the japanese, they clearly state that they will only find and interrogate the collaborators of the previous occupation meaning that they will only deal with members of the occupational governments. Is Germany not doing a similar project right now? Are they not finding all the major Nazi collaborators that killed millions of people and prosecute them? That is what Zeiss's organization is trying to lay the foundations of. The establishment of the organization in a separate manner from the provincial government is probably due to the fact that the provincial government is not exactly the people's government. Our delegates were not voted on to represent the people, but they are the remains of the armed insurrectionists that defeated the occupation as well as a few sprinkles of natives that have lived in foreign countries until this point. Now that doesn't sound like a government deriving power from the people, now does it...

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grifenknight wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Mark my words this is the first step down a very dangerous road. This is the beginning of a band of roving death squads. First they came for the Japanese.

Again with the meaningless words that only inspire panic and threats.  Where in does it state that the EIA will go after all the japanese, they clearly state that they will only find and interrogate the collaborators of the previous occupation meaning that they will only deal with members of the occupational governments.  Is Germany not doing a similar project right now?  Are they not finding all the major Nazi collaborators that killed millions of people and prosecute them?  That is what Zeiss's organization is trying to lay the foundations of.  The establishment of the organization in a separate manner from the provincial government is probably due to the fact that the provincial government is not exactly the people's government.  Our delegates were not voted on to represent the people, but they are the remains of the armed insurrectionists that defeated the occupation as well as a few sprinkles of natives that have lived in foreign countries until this point.  Now that doesn't sound like a government deriving power from the people, now does it...

Zeiss wrote:Seize the Japanese assets that haven't been claimed by the representatives of the provisional government, with the intention of safeguarding them until a government is elected.

O' course, 'e 'as now said 'e only meant the collaborators, but 'ow can we trust that this be what 'appens? The only person anyone answers to there is Zeiss.

Regardless, I do no' be understandin' what you do no' understand about "large paramil'tary force on Echain soil not answerin' to the provisional gov'ment, or anyone other than one man." Just 'cause the man claims to be friendly do no' mean much.

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"Germany", Mr grifenknight, is under occupation. There is no Germany right now, and the authority of the proposed international trials can be disputed as nothing but the Law of Victors.

The issue is the EIA has only vague and potentially very dangerous agendas, which it took unilaterally, of its own and no-one elses accord, and refuses to make their agenda at least a little bit more precise, restricted and open.

As for the legitimacy of the Provisional Government, this is formed by the leaders of the Resistance, and from confidence given to the during the Inssurgency they derive their transitional power.

However, what Zeiss is doing falls outside such powers, which are merely to facilitate a more just Government, and even if the PG had the power usurped by EIA, Zeiss has but a portion of that power; not a monopoly on it.

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MegaZeroX wrote:
grifenknight wrote:
WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Mark my words this is the first step down a very dangerous road. This is the beginning of a band of roving death squads. First they came for the Japanese.

Again with the meaningless words that only inspire panic and threats.  Where in does it state that the EIA will go after all the japanese, they clearly state that they will only find and interrogate the collaborators of the previous occupation meaning that they will only deal with members of the occupational governments.  Is Germany not doing a similar project right now?  Are they not finding all the major Nazi collaborators that killed millions of people and prosecute them?  That is what Zeiss's organization is trying to lay the foundations of.  The establishment of the organization in a separate manner from the provincial government is probably due to the fact that the provincial government is not exactly the people's government.  Our delegates were not voted on to represent the people, but they are the remains of the armed insurrectionists that defeated the occupation as well as a few sprinkles of natives that have lived in foreign countries until this point.  Now that doesn't sound like a government deriving power from the people, now does it...

Zeiss wrote:Seize the Japanese assets that haven't been claimed by the representatives of the provisional government, with the intention of safeguarding them until a government is elected.

O' course, 'e 'as now said 'e only meant the collaborators, but 'ow can we trust that this be what 'appens? The only person anyone answers to there is Zeiss.

Regardless, I do no' be understandin' what you do no' understand about "large paramil'tary force on Echain soil not answerin' to the provisional gov'ment, or anyone other than one man." Just 'cause the man claims to be friendly do no' mean much.

This organization is nothing, but a collection of individuals that want to lay the foundations for an intelligence agency and gather information and material left behind by the Japanese occupation. They have already stated their willingness to transition to the established government once it has been voted on. So the sooner we finish our government, the sooner we can end this squabble? I propose Zeiss gives in to the compromises as they do not destroy the organization, but only suspend any activity for the time being. This will allow for the finalization of the constitution and a smooth transition into our elected government.

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KarbinCry wrote:"Germany", Mr grifenknight, is under occupation. There is no Germany right now, and the authority of the proposed international trials can be disputed as nothing but the Law of Victors.

The issue is the EIA has only vague and potentially very dangerous agendas, which it took unilaterally, of its own and no-one elses accord, and refuses to make their agenda at least a little bit more precise, restricted and open.

As for the legitimacy of the Provisional Government, this is formed by the leaders of the Resistance, and from confidence given to the during the Inssurgency they derive their transitional power.

However, what Zeiss is doing falls outside such powers, which are merely to facilitate a more just Government, and even if the PG had the power usurped by EIA, Zeiss has but a portion of that power; not a monopoly on it.

And can we not judge some of these bastards under the law of Victors since we fully defeated the occupation? Thankfully, the organization has not committed any of the acts stated in the mission statement. I believe Zeiss is willing to change the mission statement to more precise terms as soon as he is given the ability. Meanwhile, the legitimacy of the PG is debatable. Since when was confidence in defeating an oppressive occupation transition into confidence that these militants are able to establish a constitution and a government that is for the people? Overthrowing a dictatorship and rebuilding a government from scratch are two very different things.

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Those transitional powers, in my view, entail establishment of a proper system of governance; also, I would like there to be an actual plebiscite on the Constitution (OOC: Arche kindof took the decision how to enact Constitution out of our hands, but since he has final say, I assume that meins, in-game, a plebiscite).

And, personally, I don't think we should form the basis of our nation's modern history on acts we or our children would one day be ashamed of.



Last edited by KarbinCry on Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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Please define Provisional Government, and which leaders are part of this group. Once this is done, please ask them for to hold a vote on whether they agree with your demands or not.

I would prefer to hear the opinion of other members of this Provisional Government first.

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Zeiss wrote:Please define Provisional Government, and which leaders are part of this group. Once this is done, please ask them for to hold a vote on whether they agree with your demands or not.

I would prefer to hear the opinion of other members of this Provisional Government first.

OOC: I believe it was stated by Arche that all PCs are part of PG, leaders of the Insurrection; this probably excludes those who don't have role in the rebellion in their backstory, however.

In that case, I suggest asking Arche to set up a poll, and untill a set time of its end, action of EIA should be suspended.

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KarbinCry wrote:Those transitional powers, in my view, entail establishment of a proper system of governance; also, I would like there to be an actual plebiscite on the Constitution (OOC: Arche kindof took the decision how to enact Constitution out of our hands, but since he has final say, I assume that meins, in-game, a plebiscite).

And, personally, I don't think we should form the basis of our nation's modern history on acts we or our children would one day be ashamed of.

I believe in order to vote the constitution in, each region should vote on two delegates to participate in the vote on the behalf of that region. This will allows the government to derive it's powerstill from the people instead of the leaders of a resistance to abolish any doubts in the matter should they arise in the future.

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OOC: See this thread detailing how the Constitution will be chosen.

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Zeiss, I believe for the sake of unity that you accept these compromises until the constitution is finalized and the organization is integrated into the government. This allows you to continue your work in peace while under the jurisdiction of the Government. OOC: I would, also, like to say that it is 2am in my timezone and that I will go to sleep now

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grifenknight wrote:OOC: I would, also, like to say that it is 2am in my timezone and that I will go to sleep now

OOC: Pansy! It's 8am for me and I am now basically 24 hours awake Wink

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The aristocracy and the royal guards are in full support of the EIA.
Such an organisation is a necessity for every nation that is to be taken seriously. We take is as good sign that such an organisation is to start with our work as fast as possible.

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The Echain Post has breaking news about the deepening crisis!

Read all about it:


http://speedrun4fun.forumotion.com/t1396-public-the-echain-post-your-first-last-and-only-stop-for-the-truth#17665

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