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[Public] First Echaini Senate

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76 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:48 pm

Director Karbin Cry (NB) wrote:
President Grifenknight wrote:OOC:  I decided to not pick a VP because they aren't allowed any other roles in the government and the VP has no role except to be in the place of the president if they are OOC asleep or unavailable.

VP can be a minister.

OOC: whatever... it ain't necessary...
If I have to choose one, I will, but I don't think it's necessary. I have no real gameplay or power as stated in the stream.

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77 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:19 pm

Im going to keep bringing the Foreman vote up until its finished. Sorry if im being annoying...
Currently, we got 2 votes for, 0 votes against and 0 votes abstained...

Crosby, since you're the one being nominated, lobby a bit. Very Happy

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78 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:17 pm

I'll cast my vote as a Yay for Mr. Crosby

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79 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:31 pm

I vote Yay for Crosby

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80 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:34 pm

It seems like that is a majority... 4 for, 0 against and 0 abstain.
I would like to announce the Foreman of the Senate, BING CROSBY 


If that is the case, I would like to propose a new bill.  This bill will be on establishing guidelines for the lower educational systems in the regions.  These guidelines will not be mandatory, but the regions can decide to adopt them.
OOC:  It will, also, make the governors life easier since they dont have to worry about regional education too much...

HERE IS THE LINK:  (OOC:  I promise no virus Very Happy )
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eGb0Zyxt7f2wmlRZafO5CPwJEYxo_WdS70ukibJlxMM/edit

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81 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:09 am

I thank the gentlemen for their unanimous appointment; at this time, I abstain for voting on the above mentioned Bill, as I am a secondary writer for the motion. I will address concerns and provide feedback for the Senators who choose to look over the bill. If you have questions, I will address them promptly.

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82 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:35 am

OOC: Is there a way to give us Comment access so we can highlight any errors we see without a forum post?

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83 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:36 am

Adamemnon wrote:OOC: Is there a way to give us Comment access so we can highlight any errors we see without a forum post?

Here you go:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eGb0Zyxt7f2wmlRZafO5CPwJEYxo_WdS70ukibJlxMM/edit?usp=sharing

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84 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:48 am

A note about the Clarification:

"These guidelines will not be forced upon the regions and are not mandatory."

If this is the case, the bill is not a bill, insofar as it is not a mandate; rather, it is a suggestion. We should either a) offer a bare bones curriculum (which I think the bill is, but we can strip it further), or b) make a bill that states education is mandatory, but that each region has free autonomy over their curricula (which is essentially what the clarification section says). I believe we should take option a), but I don't think it needs to be stripped down too much more than it already is.

OOC: Was the clarification added into it after I looked at it, because I seriously don't remember reading it.

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85 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:52 am

I dont know why I added it.
OOC: Sad

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86 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:58 am

President Grifenknight wrote:I dont know why I added it.
OOC: Sad

Mr. President,

I appreciate the sentiment behind the clarification. The governors' powers are relatively limited, and they, thus, are very protective of their rights and of their region. Honestly, if we sent this bill to the Council of Governors, they would pass it. That said, the Federal government should be able to and must set a limit for the quality of education Echaini children receive--this goal is inherent to the spirit of your bill. I argue, thus, that we should simply take out the clarification section and advance the bill as you originally intended.

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87 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 12:59 am

I believe that would be the best course of action.

OOC: LETS JUST GO BOYS!!! FULL STEAM AHEAD!!!

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88 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:09 am

I think this Bill is a good step forward, but it is too weak. There is neither a stick nor a carrot for the Governors to follow these guidelines. We should subsidize provinces that do follow these guidelines as an incentive. Subsidy being a very loose word. Additionally, schools set up in these subsidized provinces are required to send reports to the Federal Government, to Education Minister GreyWolf specifically, as a monitor on their progress. They must also allow the Minister of Education to ensure these schools are following these guidelines in a method the Minister may determine at their discretion.

Additionally, do we have word on the minting of the Espada? Is Director KarbinCry waiting on any action on our end?

Due to our lack of education infrastructure, I think we should only begin education for children up to the age of 12. Anyone older will require better trained educators we do not have, and anyone younger is not capable of working on rebuilding the nation. Children who become 13 this year are eligible to be enrolled in school by their guardian(s) next year. Then for all subsequent years we will expand our education system by 1 grade to keep up. This will give time for our education system to rebuild and still educate the youth.



Last edited by Adamemnon on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : question)

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89 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:21 am

Adamemnon wrote:I think this Bill is a good step forward, but it is too weak. There is neither a stick nor a carrot for the Governors to follow these guidelines. We should subsidize provinces that do follow these guidelines as an incentive. Subsidy being a very loose word. Additionally, schools set up in these subsidized provinces are required to send reports to the Federal Government, to Education Minister GreyWolf specifically, as a monitor on their progress. They must also allow the Minister of Education to ensure these schools are following these guidelines in a method the Minister may determine at their discretion.

Additionally, do we have word on the minting of the Espada? Is Director KarbinCry waiting on any action on our end?

Due to our lack of education infrastructure, I think we should only begin education for children up to the age of 12. Anyone older will require better trained educators we do not have, and anyone younger is not capable of working on rebuilding the nation. Children who become 13 this year are eligible to be enrolled in school by their guardian(s) next year. Then for all subsequent years we will expand our education system by 1 grade to keep up. This will give time for our education system to rebuild and still educate the youth.

I really, really hate to say this, especially because I am a co-writer for the bill, but we may actually be forced to table this bill for at least one year. I have negotiated Bill 001C's allotment schedule with the Director of the National Bank, and the implementation of the Espada is going to be even lower than I had initially anticipated (it looks like a mere 100M will be circulated within the first three months of the fiscal year--approximately 33M per month); and, to make matters worse, the bill has a limited surplus for our budget, and that is the last part of the allotment to be given (to the Federal government).

Also, Senator Adamemnon is correct: even if we had the money to rebuild schools in the region (these are not mandated to rebuild school per the Provincial Reconstruction Package), we could not subsidize the schools for implementing the curricula, nor could we offer funds for the schools to hire suitable teachers.

It is with a heavy heart, and with damaged pride, that I set forward the motion to table and retool this bill--while it is set aside, I believe we should rework it, provide it with teeth; and, as an a prior measure, we must amend the constitution to ensure that the Federal government can, without question, establish a minimum curricula to which regional governments must adhere.

Mr. President, I will advance the bill at this time if you wish; but, please know that I think we ought to table it and make it stronger and more viable before introducing it to the Council. And, before doing so, we need to set aside a fund for regional education so that we can actually enact the bill.

Senator Adamemnon, thank you for stating what should have been obvious. I forgot that I have been working with the Director of the National Bank (a process that has been perhaps the most difficult task of my tenure--and I had to fight tooth and nail to be afforded the opportunity to disburse 33M Espadas per month!). Even now my budget has not been funded properly, though I am hopeful that I can send out packages tomorrow.

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90 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:23 am

Understandable. I see no problem with this.

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91 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:23 am

President Grifenknight wrote:Understandable.  I see no problem with this.

Thank you for understanding the predicament, Mr. President.

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92 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:58 am

Most of our efforts should be focused on rebuilding our trade and defense of said trade so these concerns with the Treasury may evaporate. Which is why I am heartened these considerations were taken into account during the retooling of Bill 001C's budget allocation.

To clarify: By a subsidy reward, I think something can be worked out instead of a direct deposit of funds. The subsidy would be a carrot to make the Governors use their Relief funds to establish these schools. The subsidy could take the form of guarantees, or favourable tax changes, or Preferential treatment when it comes to the next year's budget, etc. But these would all likely be guarantees as opposed to immediate rewards.
Consider this before voting on this bill.

I'm curious how the budget is coming along, and will discuss this with you out of this session as it does not seem to be the right place.

Also, we should disburse the Relief funds we allocated in Bill 001C as soon as possible.



Last edited by Adamemnon on Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : more)

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93 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:04 am

Adamemnon wrote:Most of our efforts should be focused on rebuilding our trade and defense of said trade so these concerns with the Treasury may evaporate. Which is why I am heartened these considerations were taken into account during the retooling of Bill 001C's budget allocation.

To clarify: By a subsidy reward, I think something can be worked out instead of a direct deposit of funds. The subsidy would be a carrot to make the Governors use their Relief funds to establish these schools. The subsidy could take the form of guarantees, or favourable tax changes, or Preferential treatment when it comes to the next year's budget, etc. But these would all likely be guarantees as opposed to immediate rewards.
Consider this before voting on this bill.

I'm curious how the budget is coming along, and will discuss this with you out of this session as it does not seem to be the right place.

Also, we should disburse the Relief funds we allocated in Bill 001C as soon as possible.

As stated, we will table the bill until next year's budget. I whole heartedly agree the the establishment of an economy, an interregional infrastructure system, an army, and a network of interregional and international trade routes is more pressing; and, we cannot augment bill 001C unless we advance a motion to amend it (which I think would be detrimental to the bill as a whole). As for the budget, I am currently working out a monthly allotment plan, which should guarantee approximately 33M Espadas to be disbursed over the next four months. The deal is not finalized, for the National Bank is set on disbursing the allotments incrementally and I am working out the nuts and bolts; however, we should have an agreement by tomorrow, at which point I shall release a public statement.

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94 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:17 am

This is good. Should you require assistance with this, do not hesitate to ask me.
I call a vote on Bill 003A if and only if that is required for tabling.
I vote Nay (OOC: if 'Nay' == 'tabling').

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95 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:26 am

In my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many, one of our most pressing issues is the establishment of our currency. I think that should be our top priority going forward.

OOC: Do we already have the facilities necessary for a mint, or do we need to take action to construct one?

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96 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:08 am

Adamemnon wrote:This is good. Should you require assistance with this, do not hesitate to ask me.
I call a vote on Bill 003A if and only if that is required for tabling.
I vote Nay (OOC: if 'Nay' == 'tabling').

Thank you for your support. The lead author and secondary writers have both expressed interest in tabling the bill until a more appropriate time arises; so, we do not need to vote for the bill to be tabled. Thank you, however, for your decorum and dedication to precedent.

free7694 wrote:In my opinion, and I think in the opinion of many, one of our most pressing issues is the establishment of our currency. I think that should be our top priority going forward.

OOC: Do we already have the facilities necessary for a mint, or do we need to take action to construct one?

I, too, believe the issue of our currency is a pressing issue, and it is one that I am handling personally, on behalf of the Senate (though I am open to the Senatorial body's counsel, of course). As I mentioned earlier, the National Bank will allot approximately 33M per month for the first four months of the budget. And, per your concerns about the National Bank and a mint, we have a facility in place (the Espada pre-dates the constitution--we're merely repurposing the currency to reflect the current iteration of government). If the gentleman has any further questions or concerns, I am more than willing to address them.

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97 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 3:09 am

No further concerns, just wanted to be sure I wasn't putting the cart before the horse, so to speak.

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98 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:52 am

Honourable Senators,
to address your concerns about the Espada, I direct you to the joint Ministry of Finance and Transportation and National Bank bulletin board (OOC: MoFT thread), where the detailing of how exactly the mint is going to work.
Furthermore, I would like to clarify directly the somewhat unfortunate misinformation Foreman Crosby spread.

First of all, it is not the job of the Bank or the Senate to make Budget. It's the job of Minister of Finance and Transportation do give the President a Budget to propose to the Senate and Council.

Secondly, there is no budget, as no Budget has been proposed by the President, as he alone has the power to propose a proper Budget, and no Budget passed the vote in the Senate nor the Council. The allotments used now are of doubtful legal standing considering that, as far as I know, only the Foreman set them up, without knowledge or authorisation of the Senate, nor the President or the Minister of Finance and Transportation.

And finally, it is simply not true that the Bank is releasing 33 million Espada per month to the Government. In the Inaugural Mint, we minted 350 million.
Of those, we sent the Government 100 million immediately, and the Government may use them as it wishes.
The rest is currently held by the Bank, and will either be distributed to the Government, if and when at least 80 million Espada gets spent and is circulated in the populace, or distributed directly to the People should the Government be unable or unwilling to spend the money.

You must realise that a currency is not truly currency, unless it circulates amongst the People. This is why the Bank divided the inaugural mint in this fashion - it wants to retain the ability to distribute the funds directly,
As things go, Mr. Crosby's plan of only spending 33 million monthly for three months is seen by the Bank as too slow for proper jump-starting of the Currency, and should such plan be authorised and fulfilled, The Bank would distribute at least 100 million of the reserve 250 million directly to the people.
If the Government spends the money in at least two months, the Bank will release the additional funds directly to the Government.

On another matter, regarding your proposed change to the Constitution regarding Education, I must protest not only as a private citizen, but also as the Director of the Bank.
Changing the Constitution not only disrupts the careful balance of the Regions and the National Government, but it also weakens Constitution as a whole.
By changing it mere days after its passing into Law, you are immediately opening it for more changes, for example, shackling of the Bank, which has been made independent for a very good reason, that is, so it can be independent of political pressures and concern itself solely by the Economy.
The National Government can, for example, set standards for Universities and admittance standards into universities, and these could be just as well used to ensure similar quality and breadth of lower education across the Regions. There is no need for the National Government to seize more power

OOC + TL;DR


  1. The Minister of Finance and Transportation should be the one to craft a Budget which the President would then propose, and the Senate and the Council voted on it.
  2. Legality of Senator Crosby's allotments is doubtful from the Bank's perspective
  3. The Bank minted 350 million
  4. 100 million was sent to the Government
  5. Further funds will be sent if the Government spends either 80 million in two weeks or less or full 100 million in two months or less
  6. If the government does not spend that fast, we will only send it further 150 million, and 100 million will be distributed among the People directly
  7. This is so that we can ensure the circulation of Espada
  8. Lastly, the Bank cautions against changing the Constitution because of Education, as it weakens the Constitution, and thus weakens the Bank
  9. Rather, I personally, as a Constitution expert, propose you use admittance standards to universities as a way to ensure some level of uniformity across the Regions
  10. To ensure minimal curriculum, the Government can sue Regions in the Constitutional Court, should they not provide what is constitutionally mandated.

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99 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:41 am

Director Karbin Cry (NB) wrote:
On another matter, regarding your proposed change to the Constitution regarding Education, I must protest not only as a private citizen, but also as the Director of the Bank.
Changing the Constitution not only disrupts the careful balance of the Regions and the National Government, but it also weakens Constitution as a whole.
By changing it mere days after its passing into Law, you are immediately opening it for more changes, for example, shackling of the Bank, which has been made independent for a very good reason, that is, so it can be independent of political pressures and concern itself solely by the Economy.
The National Government can, for example, set standards for Universities and admittance standards into universities, and these could be just as well used to ensure similar quality and breadth of lower education across the Regions. There is no need for the National Government to seize more power
1) Your statement on the constitution:
From my perspective, changing the constitution shows the true power of the document. It shows that it isnt merely something that forces itself onto us, but that we are able to change and form it. If you believe amending the constitution weakens it, then why add an amendment process?

Using your psychology, it will always be too soon if we dont change it now and set a standard for the future. People, in five years time, will ask if they should change it and the response will be "no" and the same in 10 years, and in 15 years, and in 20 years...

2) Your statement on education:
Your proposal of setting standards for admittance in universities will not work. In such a process, there are too many independent variables.
What happens when a region decides it necessary to only train their students children into becoming farmers? miners? traders? hunters?
Changing admittance guidelines would have little effect unless regions decided it would be the best course of action to establish their regional education in such a manner that students go to college.
Changing admittance guidelines will in no way establish a similar quality and breadth throughout lower education in Echain. It is much too vague and at best, only a few regions will follow. At worst, not a single regions will give a fuck and continue on with their ways.
The guidelines that we would establish would help expose all the students to different subjects. This would grant them greater autonomy in choosing what they want to do for the rest of their lives.

3) Seizing power:
I understand you're an avid regionalist, but the national government is not gaining any power by doing this. If anything, it would help the regions in establishing their education and it would grant them a foundation to work on.
OOC: This would, also, make the governor's job easier in the educational department.

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100 Re: [Public] First Echaini Senate on Mon Jan 16, 2017 9:49 am

A small, dark man with a thick flowing moustache crawls out from under the benches. Standing up, he stretches a twinge out of his back.

Nice chamber you've got here! Shame if a random governor walked in. What are you guys doing? Making laws huh? Pretty neat.

The governor is quickly escorted out of the senate building.

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