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Council of Governors

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126 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:42 pm

Then we have vastly different definitions of socialism. Socialism to me is the ownership of the means of production by the worker. Even if we were to take the corrupted Leninist view that the state owning the means of production was socialism, I would not qualify. I am simply engaging in capitalist trade with private companies and establishing a short-term welfare system.

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127 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:45 pm

Well then it's state capitalism; I admit to using socialism as a shorthand for central planning, which you won't do explicitly, but rather implicitly.

Alas, I fear we reached an impasse, and so I'd end discussion on the SEA, and open discussion on NEA and RAIA.

OOC: Give me a minute to re-post and update the agenda.

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128 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:46 pm

1st Session of the Council - 3.1

Propositions
  • Bill 001A Act - WhiskeyWhiskers - Tabled (by WhiskeyWhiskers)
  • Strong Espada Act - Felix Clary - Discussion finished (most contentious, especially rationing; discussion reached an impasse)
  • New Echaini Act - Felix Clary (written by late Karbin Cry) - In Discussion (the three acts are interdependent, so change in one would mean change in the others; will be voted upon after all three are properly discussed)
  • Refugee Allocation and Integration Act - Felix Clary - In Discussion
Appointments
  • WarWager for Delegate of Defense - Bradley3000 - Voting - 4 for, 0 against, 1 abstained
  • Krenzler for Delegate of Defense - Bradley3000 - Voting - 0 for, 4 against, 1 abstained

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129 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:47 pm

For a while now, Mr Gollvieg have been listening quietly to both sides of the argument, he writes notes down and compare the notes to reports and papers he has in front of him.

"From what I can see, there are good arguments on the food supply issue on both side and there are things we be fixated upon. Here are the information that I have available to me:

1) We are currently living in the Australian Monsoon belt, which means that due to our position in relation to the Philippines we have a year-long growth period with moderate to light rain in Plainsdale and a Dry-Wet Season in Lurem.

2) Plainsdale is injecting Espada directly to it's people by using the funds allocated to the Region to purchase food directly and donating the food to the Soup Kitchen program. This works because as long as Governor WW is buying the food using Espada, the money is being circulated into the population.

3) The Soup Kitchen runs on the food that Plainsdale donates and everyone in the country has a right to that food. As of this point, because the previous government did not prioritize feeding the population this Rationing is done by using Soup Kitchen Lines and everyone is given two meals a day no matter the Region.

4) A small stockpile of Food was reserved in order to handle the sudden influx of Refugees. This stockpile was calculated with the worse case scenario that Echain will receive 1 million new refugees. Thus, due to the low numbers of new refugees we have enough reserves to feed 250,000 refugees indefinitely.

5) The Benefit I can see with the Ration Vouchers is with some tweaks and compromise it can be incorporated into the current Food Rationing of the Soup Kitchens. Instead of getting their food from the Soup Kitchen program everyone shall be given a ration voucher worth 2 meals/day. This Voucher can be turned into Grocers for ingredients or to restaurants for meals. This shifts the burden of distribution away from the Soup Kitchen, freeing Rangers for important tasks and allowing for the growth of local distributors.

6) The Way the Ration Vouchers work is that they can be turned in to the Regional Government by distributors that has business permits for Espada, injecting more Espada into the market. Using this Espada, the distributors can use it to buy food from the Plainsdale food bank for 101%(We can adjust this) Market Value or from local producers at market value. This creates an incentive for local producers and companies to expand food supplies naturally as they can make a profit by competing with the Plainsdale food bank and Plainsdale does not sap their entire budget on giving out free food.

7) We inject Espada into the population by commissioning public works projects, infrastructure investment, and domestic/regional purchases. With the Espada gain from this work, the population can use it to buy goods, increasing demand and stimulating the economy or they can buy extra meals which increase demand and stimulating the local economy.

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130 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:50 pm

I would strongly support that during the actual establishment of the Ration Books and monthly rations, the respective authorities work with local Soup kitchens to allow for "bundles" containing ingredients used by the kitchen in a month, so people can just turn in those bundles and be fed.

This way, the rationing system will gently work to normalise food production and trade.

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131 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:54 pm

Why must only the socialist apologise for his ideology? You must recognise the explicit bias in this rationing system towards a capitalist economy? Yet that is not a problem for you. You are perfectly happy with this being placed on a region without its consent. Why?

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132 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:56 pm

Look gentlemen don't turn this into a partisan debate, we need to come up with something that works not something that works towards an ideology.

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133 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:57 pm

It's because Felix's proposal attempts to stimulate the economy due to the lack of currency. Your system will just promote laziness and does nothing for any economy other than Plainsdale.

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134 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:59 pm

As I said already, I did provide a compromise, you did not agree with it and pushed for your ideology irregardless of practicality or regional proclivities. Thus since we reached such an impasse, I proposed ending discussion on the SEA, so we may direct our energies more productively.

I would urge the Governors to turn their attention to the other two proposed acts, so we may make some actual progress and refrain from uselessly repeating the same blunt arguments over and over again.

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135 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:00 pm

President Grifenknight wrote:It's because Felix's proposal attempts to stimulate the economy due to the lack of currency.  Your system will just promote laziness and does nothing for any economy other than Plainsdale.

Which of my proposals are you talking about? Can you be more specific?

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136 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:03 pm

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:As I said already, I did provide a compromise, you did not agree with it and pushed for your ideology irregardless of practicality or regional proclivities. Thus since we reached such an impasse, I proposed ending discussion on the SEA, so we may direct our energies more productively.

No, this is important and not just with regards to the SEA. My region will not be trod on so easily. You can not simply continue to pretend we are all in agreement here. I will not attempt to force socialism on you, if you will not force capitalism on me. Agreed?

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137 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:04 pm

I just want to state for me personally the New Echaini Act and the Refugee Allocation and Integration Act or good as they are and I see no real problem here. Input?

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138 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:05 pm

Agreed. I have no issues with either bill.

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139 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:09 pm

1) I do not pretend that we agree. In fact, as I said, we reached an impasse, which is as far from agreement as is possible.

2) I never did try to force capitalism on anyone, in fact I've not heard why my compromise is unacceptable instead of "it doesn't protect against exploitation" - exploitation, I might add, which you've not yet proven.

But, as I said, this is going in circles. We will just have to agree to disagree.

As for NEA and RAIA, an important question is whether any Governor feels it advantageous to create another Special Immigrant Zone. So far, I only included areas with strong Japanese presence to help with integration, but many regions are underpopulated.
If I remember correctly, even the fields of Plainsdale could use more hands; however I'm unsure whether it's feasible and appropriate to create a SIZ there. We must also consider ethnic tensions.

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140 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:13 pm

I have already said that I would be willing to establish the zone in Central as outlined within your proposal.

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141 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:14 pm

OOC: I'm about to go over your other bills Very Happy

IC: Whiskey, I'm talking about your voucher argument with Felix.

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142 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:16 pm

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:1) I do not pretend that we agree. In fact, as I said, we reached an impasse, which is as far from agreement as is possible.
I meant in regards to economics in general. Pretending as if a market economy is the default state for all regions and legislation should be tailored specifically to benefit that.

2) I never did try to force capitalism on anyone, in fact I've not heard why my compromise is unacceptable instead of "it doesn't protect against exploitation" - exploitation, I might add, which you've not yet proven.

Your compromise was unacceptable because it did not compromise. It kept the status quo of the bill, only with me footing the cost, allowing private exchanges to create a profit on free goods.

If I remember correctly, even the fields of Plainsdale could use more hands
It would be handy.

We must also consider ethnic tensions

No we don't. And I refuse to.

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143 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:17 pm

I would like to propose an amendment to the Refugee and Integration Act to even out the ratio to 2:2:2:2

We do not have the expertise spread to allow the current number and both Central and the Coast need high skilled workers in order to expand industrial production to meet the needs of the nation.

I have talked to many of the refugees and a good number of them who are not Japanese have expressed a desire to own farms. As such we can add Plainsdale to the list as long as they can guarantee equal treatment and protection.

I also have a large group of Japanese that wish to start a city within the Island of Grain. They seem to be composed of Nagasaki survivors with skills balanced toward trade, craftsmanship and construction. I am in favor of granting them the right to build the city because Aberisk does not have many local resources and we need as much industry and trade as possible if we want to grow

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144 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:18 pm

Equal treatment and protection are of course extended to any and all refugees.

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145 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:22 pm

President Grifenknight wrote:IC: Whiskey, I'm talking about your voucher argument with  Felix.

Threat of starvation to motivate your workers is disgusting. If you honestly believe the men and women of Echain would not work without such a death sentence hanging over their heads, I pity you and would invite you to tour Plainsdale with me sometime.

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146 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:28 pm

This is my compromise: "However, I am content with adding a paragraph about voucher trading which would include the Region's right to determine what form it takes in their confines, or if it will take any form at all."

Which would mean every region could allow or ban the exchange of vouchers. It says nothing about you footing any bill.

And yes, market economy is the default national setting. Because the fact that national level is market still allows for regions to be socialist, state capitalist, whatever; free economy is more flexible as a superstructure.
On the other hand, making the national level economy socialist or constraining it in another way would then limit the Regions in their options.

Now the fact you refuse to consider possible ethnic tensions does not mean they will magically disappear. I've lived in a country which was eaten up by exactly these tensions, and, like you, I pretended they don't exist.
This is a sensitive matter, as a poor reception can sour immigrants to the idea of Echain.

To Governor Gollviegs points: the ratio is simply a function of space and absorption capacity.
Shikokushin has plenty of space (jungle can be culled easily, after all), and is a fairly homogeneous Japanese Echaini area which will ease tensions.
Question of expertise is solved by the preference system.

As for a new city on Island of Grain, there's the issue of cost. The area will not be self-sustainable, and transportation will be an issue. Therefore, until we "free our hands" a bit, I'd favour settling areas which are already at least partially developed.

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147 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:40 pm

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:This is my compromise: "However, I am content with adding a paragraph about voucher trading which would include the Region's right to determine what form it takes in their confines, or if it will take any form at all."

Which would mean every region could allow or ban the exchange of vouchers. It says nothing about you footing any bill.
It was in response to my suggestion that I would foot the bill as long as no exchanges could profit from that. Maybe you had misconstrued what I had said?

And yes, market economy is the default national setting. Because the fact that national level is market still allows for regions to be socialist, state capitalist, whatever; free economy is more flexible as a superstructure.
On the other hand, making the national level economy socialist or constraining it in another way would then limit the Regions in their options.

Forgive me, when I said market economy I of course meant a capitalist market economy. I will be drafting a bill so that these impasses are less likely in the future.

Now the fact you refuse to consider possible ethnic tensions does not mean they will magically disappear. I've lived in a country which was eaten up by exactly these tensions, and, like you, I pretended they don't exist.
This is a sensitive matter, as a poor reception can sour immigrants to the idea of Echain.

Any attempt to preempt them only gives them legitimacy. We are selling our own citizens short if we pretend we know how they will respond. Any problems regarding this in my region will be dealt with swiftly and harshly.

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148 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:43 pm

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:To Governor Gollviegs points: the ratio is simply a function of space and absorption capacity.
Shikokushin has plenty of space (jungle can be culled easily, after all), and is a fairly homogeneous Japanese Echaini area which will ease tensions.
Question of expertise is solved by the preference system.

As for a new city on Island of Grain, there's the issue of cost. The area will not be self-sustainable, and transportation will be an issue. Therefore, until we "free our hands" a bit, I'd favour settling areas which are already at least partially developed.

"I can try to give the Refugee suggestions but ultimately the decision to Relocate will be within their own hands. I cannot order them to go to places they do not wish to go and at the moment, they have already expressed a desire to work in Northport where their skills can be utilised fully, Plainsdale, for land and the right to own farms, Central to work for the CCAF and Aberisk to continue their trades. I will try to suggest Versberg but I can't guarantee that the numbers you want will happen. Aberisk lacks exploitable resources so we must make it up in Cultural Exports.

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149 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:45 pm

Governor Gollvieg, make sure refugees are aware they will not be sole owners of their farms. All productive land is held communally in Plainsdale.

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150 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:49 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Governor Gollvieg, make sure refugees are aware they will not be sole owners of their farms. All productive land is held communally in Plainsdale.

"Understood, also, what are your thought on my compromise? I wished to allow Plainsdale to be able to compete on a Regional Scale as a single entity, preserving Plainsdale Socialist economy while at the same time allowing the economies of the other regions to build up based on which ever their choice is. Please tell me which parts of my proposal you have an issue with.

This goes the same with Governor Felix"

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