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Council of Governors

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26 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:10 am

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Why would USD be used over labour vouchers when only the government is using USD in trade and it's not being circulated in the country?

"Because the USD is a real currency and the Labor Voucher is imaginary, unstable, and does not allow someone to sell/buy directly on the market. The USD is the standard for the black markets around the world for a reason and as Importing becomes harder and harder to do, people will buy from the black market."

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27 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:12 am

See, Governor Whiskers, I thought so. This is not a piece of practical legislation; this is a piece of ideological law-making.
I have been an administrator of Clearspruit Valley for years, and the one thing I learned is that solving issues primarily by doing what you want to do rarely works. What works is compromise, fair bit of autonomy, and, above all else, practicality.

This bill does not work for anyone who isn't a socialist. It doesn't work for any but our most agricultural regions. It doesn't work for our People or our foreign relations, as throwing our own currency under the bus mere two months after its establishment is disorienting for the People, embarrassing for us on the scene of diplomacy, and would, frankly, speak of an amateur Government.

Right now, we must assure the people and the Markets that we have situation firmly under control, that we are continuing with the good that has already been done, not burning it all down.
What we need to do is to show the People we can solve problems quickly, not create more and more of them.

Now I am for the institution of a temporary rationing system, but not one which seeks to supplant our currency with some "vouchers". I am also in favour of one export monopoly, but such that is necessary to make Espada stronger.

But this system of socialised economy is simply not practical, and not serviceable.

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28 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:16 am

The issues are real, the bill is intended to deal with the issues. It is only ideological in that you do not think the issues are important and I do. I can see I have lost, so I will waste no more time on this bill. But I will not be blamed when we have major inequality and private interests threatening the republic.

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29 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:19 am

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:The issues are real, the bill is intended to deal with the issues. It is only ideological in that you do not think the issues are important and I do. I can see I have lost, so I will waste no more time on this bill. But I will not be blamed when we have major inequality and private interests threatening the republic.

The enemy is not domestic businesses but foreign powers. If we wish to protect ourselves from outside corporations and paramilitary groups we must become stronger and we cannot do that by weakening our economy and creating an open door for the black market.

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30 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:21 am

There wouldn't be a black market. The import stores would not be run to profit off our people. They would sell at cost. There would be no room for a black market to compete. It also wouldn't undercut domestic businesses, because we wouldn't compete. It's a ridiculous assertion and a smear of the system.

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31 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:28 am

Governor Gollvieg wrote:"The problem with using the USD as the basis of our economy is that in order to do it we have to start buying a massive amount of USD. We can't do it with Espada so we must do it with Trade Goods or Trade Metal. Which defeats the purpose because we could back the economy directly by mining for trade metal and stablise our economy by domestic consumption.Also it will create a situation where the people will use the USD instead of the Espada because it is simply more valuable which creates an open door for corruption and black market goods."

Considering the current size of the economy and the amount of Espada in circulation, I doubt that we'd have to buy a 'massive' amount. New Espada's will enter circulation when the economy grows, i.e. when we will have more funds to buy USD. The USD replacing the Espada as legal tender seems unlikely as long as the Espada is stable enough. It seems more likely for people to be using a stronger foreign currency if the Espada were weak, unstable and/or free-flowing. This goes doubly for the black market.

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:There wouldn't be a black market. The import stores would not be run to profit off our people. They would sell at cost. There would be no room for a black market to compete. It also wouldn't undercut domestic businesses, because we wouldn't compete. It's a ridiculous assertion and a smear of the system.

Mister Whiskey, considering the possible limitations on free trade, this situation would most certainly allow for smuggling of goods.

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32 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:30 am

And why would people buy marked up goods from the black market rather than those sold at cost?

Why would someone smuggle in goods to not make a profit?

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33 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:36 am

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:And why would people buy marked up goods from the black market rather than those sold at cost?

"Because any items that would go through the Import/Export board must be first purchased by the Board otherwise it will not be readily available for purchase. High demand will create an artificial lack of supplies which will have to wait for the board to purchase more. As the time grows between availability, higher priced items become more easy to purchase in the minds of those who need it. Do you want to wait 6 months to a year for the board to approve and buy 1 single item that is not on the list or will you shell out 50% extra for the black market import?

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34 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:39 am

And of course this wouldn't happen with private businesses themselves because...

All it means is that we have to make sure we're importing at a decent rate. You're inventing problems with the system when it hasn't shown it's incapable of importing things to meet demand.

If you think it's necessary for the board to have a profit motive to understand that, that could be arranged too.

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35 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:44 am

Fellow Governors, I've finally produced the laws I promised to bring to the floor.
There are three of them, and all are interconnected; however, should one fail, the others can be fixed to work independently, alas with diminished efficiency.

First is the Strong Espada Act. In this I seek to maintain and strenghten Espada, mainly by giving rubber export monopoly to Kautschukbund, and instituting a food rationing so as to safeguard against famine and the threat of entities using food as a tool for financial or political gains.

Secondly, the New Echaini Act, written by the late Director of National Bank, Karbin Cry, to serve as a basis for immigration policy.

And last the Refugee Allocation and Integration Act to supplement NEA and provide us with tools to help new residents integrate safely into the society, as well as to become economically active as soon as possible.

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36 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:47 am

"Tell me, will this Board be able to buy every single product on the market just to make if available for us to buy readily? If not, how will the board choose the right items to import? Let's say, I need streptomycin right now as soon as possible, does the Board have 20,000 units in storage? How quickly can this board get me 20,000 units of streptomycin? Will they understand that this item is a critical import that MUST be done now without bureaucracy? I will tell you now, if we have a crisis tomorrow and I have a choice between waiting for the Board one extra day versus paying a 100% markup for streptomycin to get it one day earlier, that is a damn easy choose, I will take it every single time"

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37 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:49 am

Can you expand on this rationing system. How will my farmers be reimbursed for their goods?

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38 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:51 am

Governor Gollvieg wrote:"Tell me, will this Board be able to buy every single product on the market just to make if available for us to buy readily? If not, how will the board choose the right items to import? Let's say, I need streptomycin right now as soon as possible, does the Board have 20,000 units in storage? How quickly can this board get me 20,000 units of streptomycin? Will they understand that this item is a critical import that MUST be done now without bureaucracy? I will tell you now, if we have a crisis tomorrow and I have a choice between waiting for the Board one extra day versus paying a 100% markup for streptomycin to get it one day earlier, that is a damn easy choose, I will take it every single time"

Oh please. Smugglers are not magical beasts capable of whisking things out of a hat. This board will be more than capable of acting as intermediary for critical imports.

One of the major features of this bill is that it will free you of the need to be the importer of that streptomycin. With the revenues we will produce we will be able to handle our health care without the need of your charitable organisation.



Last edited by Governor WhiskeyWhiskers on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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39 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:52 am

Well, food will still be sold and bought for Espada. However, to buy or sell food indirectly, meaning without intent to consume it, but to sell it to the costumer, one will need proper permits and will have to log the transaction.
And if someone buys food for consumption, they must also provide an unused food voucher from their ration book; these vouchers will be provided on a monthly basis.
Ultimately, it in fact incentiveses home-growing of food, as the primary producer may use his own food, and still gets the vouchers.

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40 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:57 am

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:Well, food will still be sold and bought for Espada. However, to buy or sell food indirectly, meaning without intent to consume it, but to sell it to the costumer, one will need proper permits and will have to log the transaction.
And if someone buys food for consumption, they must also provide an unused food voucher from their ration book; these vouchers will be provided on a monthly basis.
Ultimately, it in fact incentiveses home-growing of food, as the primary producer may use his own food, and still gets the vouchers.

"Hmm, so let me get this straight, correct me if I am wrong. Instead of waiting at a Line for one of the Soup Kitchens I am given a Ration Voucher. Now this ration voucher can be used at any restaurant/grocery because maybe I am tired of the 98th straight day of Potato stew. I can trade this voucher to the business in return for food. Is this right so far?"

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41 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 6:57 am

So it will not help those unable to get Espadas to pay for food?

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42 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:02 am

Rations are not per-meal, but per-food; so you'd have, say a voucher for 1kg of potatoes and 100g of butter. Restaurants would operate as end consumers, meaning they'd buy their stock with vouchers, and then they'd sell the finished meal for vouchers of the customers to be operable.

And vouchers do have a social benefit as well. By including 3 categories of food, and making two trade-able, poor citizen can sell, for example, meat vouchers, for Espada.

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43 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:03 am

This seems a callous experiment. We should not be forcing our poorest citizens to be scrounging together stamps to sell to richer Echainis.

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44 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:04 am

Sir zu Osegg, first of, nice to make your acquaintance. Secondly regarding your proposals:

As for the "Refugee Allocation and Integration Act", I am fully in support of this and as the Governor of Central I am willing to sign consent to the establishment of the zone in Central, should the act pass.

I am in agreement with most points within the "New Echaini Act" but I have one question. Could you please explain to me the point behind Article V, point 2. Why is the 50km barrier in place? I see no real purpose in this arbitrary seeming distance.

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45 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:06 am

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:Rations are not per-meal, but per-food; so you'd have, say a voucher for 1kg of potatoes and 100g of butter. Restaurants would operate as end consumers, meaning they'd buy their stock with vouchers, and then they'd sell the finished food for vouchers of the customers to be operable.

And vouchers do have a social benefit as well. By including 3 categories of food, and making two trade-able, poor citizen can sell, for example, meat vouchers, for Espada.

I can see how this works if instead of specific vouchers for items we can broaden the categories to just be nutritional categories. It doesn't matter if you purchase cheese, milk or eggs as long as you can purchase 1 voucher equivalent of Dairy

Also, I have to warn you Governor Felix, from preliminary numbers there are vastly higher number of Highly Specialised educated Refugees. The fascist policies of Imperial Japan created a workforce of professionals and the current spread of distribution will not be feasible unless we either force Highly Skilled workers to do jobs that are outside of their specialty or we accept a larger number of Refugees from China, the Pacific and even Europe."

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46 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:18 am

To Governor Whiskers: if you wish to institute a social subsidy program in your region, you are free to do so, as is any Governor. However, on the national scale, this is a sensible policy, as it gives the poor a commodity to barter with; one which they lacked prior to that.

To Governor Lorinbas: that is so the sponsor can be supposed to know the applicant personally, as without such measure a man who never met the resident could become his sponsor.
I am also delighted to make your acquitance; however, proper way to adress me would be Clary, as zu Osegg is a vestigial title (it means "from Osegg", as in "count/duke/lord from Osegg"; Clary is my dynastical name - a surname).

To Governor Gollvieg: unfortunately, we lack the expertise and bureaucracy to ensure such policy working. To regulate and audit sale of food would become immeasurably more complex with broader vouchers, and so a more restrictive system is necessary.
We can also look to Europe, where similar systems are in effect in the aftermath of the War.

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47 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:22 am

I would prefer simply to work out a more equitable rationing system. If we are rationing due to a specific food shortage, no amount of money should raise you above another. I believe the tradable nature of your two higher rations simply amounts to a state-sponsored black market.

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48 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:24 am

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:To Governor Gollvieg: unfortunately, we lack the expertise and bureaucracy to ensure such policy working. To regulate and audit sale of food would become immeasurably more complex with broader vouchers, and so a more restrictive system is necessary.
We can also look to Europe, where similar systems are in effect in the aftermath of the War.

Why not use the Japanese Settler's from the Central? When I did my initial recruitment drive I gathered information from all the regions and Occupation Period reports. It seems that the Central Japanese are nearly all Specialized in Bureaucracy and Government work, in fact we been using them for daily operations without really noticing it.

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49 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:31 am

Sir Clary I think than we have a misunderstanding within the New Echain Act, for as I read it, it says " Sponsorship by a Citizen living at least 50 km from applicant", which I interpret as that the sponsor must live "at least" 50km away. Which makes no sense to me.

You say its intended is the exact opposite of how I read it. If this is the case than I support this bill as this seams way more sensible to me and the only change I would like to see is change the phrasing of Article V, point 2.

From: " Sponsorship by a Citizen living at least 50 km from applicant" to " Sponsorship by a Citizen living in an 50km radius around the applicants main residence" to prevent possible misreadings in the future.

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50 Re: Council of Governors on Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:40 am

The rations would be made so if a person only eats what is in his or hers category of Mandatory vouchers.
In effect, the system a) limits speculation on food, b) limits total spending on food of a single person.
This then constricts the price of food considerably (making them more available), and special and exchangeable vouchers double as a de facto social subsidy for the poor.

We could move to a complete rationing, however such a system would be harder to transition away from. With this hybrid system, such change could be made considerably more easily, as people would still be using Espada.

Also, one aspect you failed to see, is that if a poor person sells his exchangeable rations, he may use that Espada however he wants to, so he could, for example, buy shoes, or clothes, or whatever; if he had only in-exchangeable food vouchers which would be exchanged directly for food, he'd perhaps have pies, but he'd still be freezing wet on the streets with but rags and makeshift clogs.

As for the question of relaxing voucher system to categorical, and not an exact one, I must still insist on the, perhaps hard and cold, but also true and tested system of exact foods in exact quantity.
This system has been shown to work sufficiently in Europe during both World Wars, and even with the Japanese bureaucrats, I do not believe we have the capacity to maintain a system infinitely more complex than the one I proposed.
Even if we had capacity to do so, we must weight the costs and the benefits; and here I believe the added cost to be too great and for doubtful gain, especially since we'll need administrative capacity for other issues as well - for example the administration of refugees.

I haven't noticed the error in my copy of NEA; it seems some copies were poorly transcribed. I've hence corrected the word "least" to the word "most" so the meaning is clear.

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