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Council of Governors

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326 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:09 pm

"I, for one, would not surrender over a single loss against a smaller nation."  Admiral Krenzler stands at the now open chamber doors.  His lone eye takes in the gather governors.  "Forgive me for intruding, but I was asked to attend to speak to you all about the proposed conscription bill.  It is precisely that we are a small nation that such a means of swiftly increasing our fighting strength in emergency combat situations is needed."  He looks to each governor in turn.  "We have already suffered an attack, likely funded by one of this world's powers, because they see us as a resource to exploit.  I do not know about the rest of you, but I most certainly am not willing to be used by a more powerful nation ever again!"

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327 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:10 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Gollvieg, I'm sure that works for a country that has enough people to overrun the world with their bare hands... Very Happy

You never know, when you get your ass handed to you by the best jungle fighters in human history 5 times in 2000 years (7 if you count until 2017) You might hold a grudge

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328 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:11 pm

Admiral Krenzler is here on my authority as a Governor and so is allowed to speak. I thought it might be helpful to have another military commander here.

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329 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:13 pm

Bradley, I don't understand your response... at all. It doesn't really refute or mention any point I made. Also, why are you so reliant on foreign powers? They haven't helped us at all and won't until we become a global or regional power. Once we reach that rank, if we are pushed back all the way to Echain, the war will be over. Our morale broken, our resources diminished and our manpower nonexistent. If your going to refute my argument, give me good points and some reasoning. Very Happy

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330 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:13 pm

Governor Bradley3000 wrote:That is not the point of conscription and what if not enough volunteered and we had nothing left to retaliate with?.

What do you mean it's not the point of conscription? It's the point of volunteering. If we can't get enough people to retaliate with we don't, and we wait for our allies while remaining on a defensive war footing.

One major thing you are overlooking is that we have 100% the manpower capacity of other similarly sized nations because we allow women into our armed services.

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331 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:15 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
Governor Bradley3000 wrote:That is not the point of conscription and what if not enough volunteered and we had nothing left to retaliate with?.

What do you mean it's not the point of conscription? It's the point of volunteering. If we can't get enough people to retaliate with we don't, and we wait for our allies while remaining on a defensive war footing.

One major thing you are overlooking is that we have 100% the manpower capacity of other similarly sized nations because we allow women into our armed services.


So you would say we should allow the enemy to rebuild while allies deal with our problems for us if they can?.

Manpower size does not matter when you have only 3 million people.

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332 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:16 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
Governor Bradley3000 wrote:That is not the point of conscription and what if not enough volunteered and we had nothing left to retaliate with?.

What do you mean it's not the point of conscription? It's the point of volunteering. If we can't get enough people to retaliate with we don't, and we wait for our allies while remaining on a defensive war footing.

One major thing you are overlooking is that we have 100% the manpower capacity of other similarly sized nations because we allow women into our armed services.

Also, WW, what allies?  As of right now, we are on our own, unless you have something you wish to share with us.  I do not deal in hypothetical pipedream scenarios, governor, and neither should you.

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333 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:17 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Bradley, I don't understand your response... at all.  It doesn't really refute or mention any point I made.  Also, why are you so reliant on foreign powers?  They haven't helped us at all and won't until we become a global or regional power.  Once we reach that rank, if we are pushed back all the way to Echain, the war will be over.  Our morale broken, our resources diminished and our manpower nonexistent.  If your going to refute my argument, give me good points and some reasoning. Very Happy


Ah I see you would rather us surrender if we got to the point of trying to defend Echain from invasion. Whatever state we are in we must always try.


OOC: Sorry if my arguments are becoming more erratic, is is 3:16 AM and I did not sleep well last night.

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334 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:17 pm

Manpower is extremely important if you want to do something called "war" and "Reconstruction".

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335 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:19 pm

Governor Bradley3000 wrote:
Governor Grifenknight wrote:Bradley, I don't understand your response... at all.  It doesn't really refute or mention any point I made.  Also, why are you so reliant on foreign powers?  They haven't helped us at all and won't until we become a global or regional power.  Once we reach that rank, if we are pushed back all the way to Echain, the war will be over.  Our morale broken, our resources diminished and our manpower nonexistent.  If your going to refute my argument, give me good points and some reasoning. Very Happy


Ah I see you would rather us surrender if we got to the point of trying to defend Echain from invasion. Whatever state we are in we must always try.


OOC: Sorry if my arguments are becoming more erratic, is is 3:16 AM and I did not sleep well last night.

I would much rather surrender in the eyes of defeat and live to fight another way instead of destroying the country for my personal pride.

OOC: Then I believe we should hold this argument until people can get some rest. Bradley...

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336 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:19 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Manpower is extremely important if you want to do something called "war" and "Reconstruction".

I was refuting Governor WhiskeyWhiskers point that we somehow would have a larger army than say Indonesia because we can recruit women. I was saying that is ridiculousness as we only have 3 million people of which not all would serve.

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337 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:20 pm

A reason we must search for allies. It is less of a pipe dream to think we can come to an understanding with another nation and build military and diplomatic ties than to think we could successfully invade one at this time, yet our military leadership doesn't scoff at that idea.

Do you expect Indonesia to invade the Netherlands to guarantee their independence? No, sometimes defence is all that is necessary. If we can make invasions costly enough for an invader they'll stop invading.

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338 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:21 pm

Governor Bradley3000 wrote:
Governor Grifenknight wrote:Manpower is extremely important if you want to do something called "war" and "Reconstruction".

I was refuting Governor WhiskeyWhiskers point that we somehow would have a larger army than say Indonesia because we can recruit women. I was saying that is ridiculousness as we only have 3 million people of which not all would serve.

Indonesia is not a similarly sized nation to Echain. Which is what I specified.

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339 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:22 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:
Governor Bradley3000 wrote:
Governor Grifenknight wrote:Bradley, I don't understand your response... at all.  It doesn't really refute or mention any point I made.  Also, why are you so reliant on foreign powers?  They haven't helped us at all and won't until we become a global or regional power.  Once we reach that rank, if we are pushed back all the way to Echain, the war will be over.  Our morale broken, our resources diminished and our manpower nonexistent.  If your going to refute my argument, give me good points and some reasoning. Very Happy


Ah I see you would rather us surrender if we got to the point of trying to defend Echain from invasion. Whatever state we are in we must always try.


OOC: Sorry if my arguments are becoming more erratic, is is 3:16 AM and I did not sleep well last night.

I would much rather surrender in the eyes of defeat and live to fight another way instead of destroying the country for my personal pride.  

OOC:  Then I believe we should hold this argument until people can get some rest.  Bradley...



OOC: If everyone wouldn't mind. I literally just went to argue against WhiskeyWhiskers and mid sentence gave up and sighed. Very Happy

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340 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:22 pm

Whiskey had a point. Look at the American revolutionary war for example.
Also, I like how Bradley has stated allies multiple times in his reasoning and krenzler says nothing, but whiskey says it once and krenzler spits on him...

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341 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:27 pm

There are enemies that will never stop coming, each defeat will only make them more bitter and desparate to kill you next time. Will you let your children and grandchildren fight a war you were too weak of heart to finish yourself? What is so wrong with a bill that would be in force when the vast majority of us to agree that we should beg the gods to intervene?

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342 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:28 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:A reason we must search for allies. It is less of a pipe dream to think we can come to an understanding with another nation and build military and diplomatic ties than to think we could successfully invade one at this time, yet our military leadership doesn't scoff at that idea.

Do you expect Indonesia to invade the Netherlands to guarantee their independence? No, sometimes defence is all that is necessary. If we can make invasions costly enough for an invader they'll stop invading.

I am not suggesting we invade anyone, Governor, as we do not have the strength to do anything of the sort.  We have not the manpower, naval assets of airpower at our disposal to even mount a proper defense.  This bill would allow us, as it states, to mount at least some form of defense in case of an emergency.  Make allies where you can, governors, but do not count on them when we haven't even made any yet.

If you have something to say to me, Grifen, then say it directly to me.  Or is confrontation simply more than you can stomach?

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343 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:28 pm

OOC: We need Braigwen and Chaos Ryder

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344 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:29 pm

And enemies like that will not care about being defeated once. It is irrelevant.

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345 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:30 pm

First, I bring to the floor the proposal for the Session Protocol of the Council of Governors for the Council's consideration.
I understand it probably seems incomprehensible, and so I'm prepared to answer your questions as plainly as I'm able to do so.

Second, to the PRAT proposed by Governor Whiskers.
You ask for an exact example of its abuse, and I will not give one. In the event it passes, I do not wish to give anyone a blueprint for its abuse.
The issue is that someone with a mind for legalities and a penchant for wordplay could twist and force the other Governors to approve his legislation simply by it being in accordance with PRAT. That extends to any system where people's vote is not to be based on their personal conscience.
As I stated previously, if an act infringes on the powers of the Regions in anyone's opinion, he has the duty to bring the matter to the Constitutional Court, which can then independently judge the matter.

Third, to ECA proposed by Governor Steele (OOC: bradley3000).
I will start by recounting minor issues before moving on to the holistic critique and explanation of my opposition to it.

"a vote of 7/9 (subject to change if more Governors added)" - should be done by ratio, so as to not necessitate change every time the number of Governors changes

"sign up at a local office established by the national government" - will we pay for these offices, which have to be capable of quickly signing up every person in Echain, in time of peace? That's just a waste of resources

"Single parents who have underage children (0-18) are an exception." - so those with both mother and a father are to be left alone? Who'll care for them?

"All workers unfit for service (health concerns or fitness requirements) will work on farms and factories." - how's a man wholly paralysed supposed to work on a farm or a factory?

"Ignoring conscription - Minimum sentence - 10 years" - as the other punishments, the mandatory minimums are far too severe, for crimes which'll be far too common.

Now these are minor issues and they alone aren't the cause of my dissent.

That is the fact that this is a reactionary bill. A partial bill. A short-sighted bill. Which would be fine, if it was an addition to previously existing framework which we simply do not have at the moment.
We can craft specific legislation around general one, but to do this in reverse is complicated and leads to a host of problems, even if done well and with thought.

I will be presenting a counter-proposal shortly; it will be more of a skeleton act; after all, I am not a military man and many particulars simply elude me.

OOC: I'm sorry I'll be proposing something again, but hey, at least it's in character Very Happy

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346 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:30 pm

Admiral Krenzler wrote:I am not suggesting we invade anyone, Governor, as we do not have the strength to do anything of the sort.  We have not the manpower, naval assets of airpower at our disposal to even mount a proper defense.  This bill would allow us, as it states, to mount at least some form of defense in case of an emergency.  Make allies where you can, governors, but do not count on them when we haven't even made any yet.

If you have something to say to me, Grifen, then say it directly to me.  Or is confrontation simply more than you can stomach?

Then you haven't been listening to this argument very well. Bradley3000 believes this bill would allow us to counter-invade another country. We are in agreement if this bill would only provide for the defence of the nation.

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347 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:31 pm

Krenzler, I did confront you...
To deaf in the ears to understand? I'll repeat it since you deem it necessary. I'm watching you suck puppy behind your leader while he speaks about allies, but decide to come out and spit on us when we bring up the same topic. Need I further explain?

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348 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:32 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Krenzler, I did confront you...
To deaf in the ears to understand?  I'll repeat it since you deem it necessary.  I'm watching you suck puppy behind your leader while he speaks about allies, but decide to come out and spit on us when we bring up the same topic.  Need I further explain?


Are you calling the Admiral a sycophant?.

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349 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:33 pm

May Krenzler leave the room? He has brought no useful feedback and isnt a delegate. He is neither a person of influence and importance and I don't believe his input has done anything so far. Therefore, I would like to ask Bradley to tell him puppy to leave the room. If not, I may have to order the guards.

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350 Re: Council of Governors on Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:34 pm

OOC: Can we at least agree that Samurai Jack coming back is awesome? Very Happy

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