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Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget

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51 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:58 pm

Can you tell me why?

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52 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:00 pm

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:As a compromise, I propose the following:

Tariffs will be set by Bureau for Foreign Trade. In this bureau, Region's will have an amount of votes re-negotiated under each Council so as to reflect the structure of international trade (main trading ports and hubs). The first distribution of votes will be 33% Southport, 33% Eastport, and 33% equally divided between the rest of the regions.

I would reject this. Your position as a port region should not entitle you to any greater say in this matter.

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53 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:01 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Can you tell me why?

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:If one region places a tariff of 10% on all imports and another places 5%, people will import goods to the region with lower tariffs and just bring the goods across the border to sell. This makes competing on tariff rates profitable in the short term for individual regions, but will apply a downwards pressure on all of our revenue and does not protect our domestic industry from foreign imports.

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54 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:03 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:As a compromise, I propose the following:

Tariffs will be set by Bureau for Foreign Trade. In this bureau, Region's will have an amount of votes re-negotiated under each Council so as to reflect the structure of international trade (main trading ports and hubs). The first distribution of votes will be 33% Southport, 33% Eastport, and 33% equally divided between the rest of the regions.

I would reject this. Your position as a port region should not entitle you to any greater say in this matter.

This deals with the problem of non-uniform tariffs, can we agree on that fact?

As for the power distribution in the bureau, regions most affected by a measure should have most say in it. If we were discussing agricultural quotas, would you agree to have equal vote as, say, Northport?

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55 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:09 pm

I agree it deals with that issue that is correct.

Do you see the appeal of the PRAT bill now? But you are incorrect. It is not Eastport and Southport most affected by the issue of tariffs. After all, your regional governments would be the ones collecting much of that revenue. It is regions like Northport, Lurem, and Plainsdale who have the most to lose. If Eastport and Southport attempt to increase trade through low tariffs you could decimate the demand for all domestic goods and destroy our industry and agricultural sectors. The two regions who have most to gain and least to lose from low tariffs should not have 66% of the vote.

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56 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:13 pm

And Plainsdale has most to gain by lowering taxes on agricultural goods, so regions like Northport or Lurem, or Waltens, those are the most affected, as cheap foods from Plainsdale could destroy their local agriculture.
In my system, I demand that, for the first session (i.e. until the re-negotiation), eastport and Southport get at least 50+1 majority.

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57 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:18 pm

What do you mean by low taxes on agricultural goods? I'm sorry, I don't quite follow.

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58 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:20 pm

Can you think of another mechanism, other than tariffs that would protect domestic industry from cheap imports lowering demand?

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59 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:21 pm

Say Plainsdale decides to subsidise farmers or give them tax exemption to increase production. How is that different from Southport maintaining low tariffs to increase trade?

And you misunderstand my point. I don't mind tariffs, but I maintain that regions most directly affected should have more say than those which aren't.

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60 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:24 pm

One is wholly domestic, the other deals with external trade. If agriculture moves to Plainsdale rather than Southport, that does not harm Echain. If industry moves to America that harms Echain.

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61 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:27 pm

Yes. That's why I agree that it shouldn't be entirely Regional matter. But it's not also entirely National.
If Plainsdale has the same say in tariffs as Eastport, Plainsdale can use that to pressure Eastport and gain political power over it, thus disrupting internal political power balance and making Eastport (and Southport) second-class regions.

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62 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:28 pm

And yet allowing Eastport and Southport to have all the say does the same to even more regions.

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63 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:36 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:And yet allowing Eastport and Southport to have all the say does the same to even more regions.

No it doesn't. Because Eastport doesn't have all the say, and Southport doesn't have all the say. Instead, they together would have 50+1, but what makes you think priorities of Eastport and Southport are the same? What makes you think they'll vote in unison?
You also neglect the fact that Eastport-Southport majority in the matter is not effective political tool, as it affects all the other regions. However, if tariffs are decided by an equal vote, they are a targeted weapon against Southport and Eastport.

Also, who do tariffs affect most? Eastport and Southport. Because they don't only affect their industry and their agriculture, but also their trade. Just like agricultural policy affects all the regions, but Plainsdale is still affected most.

As for the argument that trade is special because it "weakens Echain" (which is debatable, but let's not go there), then why should Eastport and Southport focus on it? Why even have trade?
If tariffs are decided by an equal vote, my regional government will take steps towards changing the region's focus.

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64 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:50 pm

I expect you will vote in unison, because your economies are similar, your industries aren't that large, (combined your two regions have the same industry as Plainsdale) and you will likely view increasing trade as your priority.

It is an even more effective political tool. You will have power over all the regions. You can pit us against each other to get the best concessions possible.

Because export is important in bringing in money, we also require many imported goods, including those necessary for our industry. Trade is important and I would never argue in and of itself weakens Echain. It is when imported goods are cheaper than domestic goods that issues arise.

If that is what you decide, so be it. Other regions will pick up the slack, we will not be strongarmed into agreeing with you.

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66 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:58 pm

This discussion should be moved to the new topic.

This topic is reserved for the discussion, implementation, and questions involving the Monthly Budget

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67 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:38 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Will state-owned industries and businesses be taken into account in a region's revenue?
They already are, basically, with regards to the Industry stat.


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68 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:25 am

Cool, thanks.

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69 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:25 am

I would like to borrow 10 Million ESP from the National Bank, bringing my debt up to 23 M ESP

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70 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:45 am

Ummm.... Isnt the whole entire reserve 10 ESP?

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71 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:00 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Ummm....  Isnt the whole entire reserve 10 ESP?

National Bank actually has 100 ESP which were not even released to the Government, and the Government never asked for them.

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72 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:03 pm

Well, the bank is controlled by the government, so make them give it. We've used our funds effectivly and now there is no pesky Karbin in the way. Very Happy

Also, Feliz, will you send the loan over any time soon?

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73 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:06 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Well, the bank is controlled by the government, so make them give it.  We've used our funds effectivly and now there is no pesky Karbin in the way. Very Happy

Also, Feliz, will you send the loan over any time soon?

No.... the central bank is an independent org within the gov. That is why I respect it's authority to issue loans.

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74 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:14 pm

Well, it has a lot of independence, but nobody even asked them if they'll release the rest 100 ESP to the Government.

OOC: I won't do it because of meta-conlict of interest

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75 Re: Reoccurring Issue: Monthly Budget on Wed Feb 15, 2017 12:24 pm

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:Well, it has a lot of independence, but nobody even asked them if they'll release the rest 100 ESP to the Government.

OOC: I won't do it because of meta-conlict of interest

OOC: I won't do it because I believe that as the second most poor Region in Echain I do not believe I should push more debt onto the Regions if they do not need it. Aberisk needs it and thus will borrow 10 ESP. I doubt Eastport with it's +5 ESP income would wish to borrow a ton of money they do not need.

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