Lorerunner's Forums

The Lorerunner's Forums

Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Latest topics
» Turn 6-1069
Yesterday at 11:30 pm by Onyx Aurelius

» Some interesting thing with Star Trek Discovery
Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:23 am by ZeroCool

» StarCraft 2: Redux
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:41 pm by theshadowcouncil

» Turn 5-1069
Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:30 pm by SilverDragonRed

» Babylon 5: The Fall of Centauri Prime (S5:E19) ~ On the End of Londo Mollari and the Symmetry of Mister Morden
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:20 am by Arsene Lupin

» Turn 4-1069
Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:30 pm by The_Wanderer_In_Rags

» Potential Future Loreruns
Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:26 am by WKC690

» Your Top 3 Themes of each Final Fantasy?
Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:28 am by Alianger

» Lorewalkers' Top 5: JRPGs
Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:27 am by Alianger

You are not connected. Please login or register

Issue - Inter-Region and International Trade (Argument Page)

Go to page : Previous  1, 2

View previous topic View next topic Go down  Message [Page 2 of 2]

I would like to present a proposal to the Council of Governors. It is a Treaty that will help pull Echain up from the darkness and strengthen us all.

OOC: The Academy City Treaty for Inter-regional Cooperation (TACTIC)

I would like for each of the Governors to go over the Treaty and should they find the condition amenable, please sign the treaty.

View user profile
Eastport will not be signing this treaty. We see it as a danger to our autonomy, and prefer sectional and simple treaties, as any complex treaty will inevitably be less advantageous to all involved parties.

View user profile
Versberg will also not sign this treaty. versberg refuses to relinquish economic control to Aberisk for any reason.

View user profile
I mean... Your first statement is extremely bold.

"Proposed by the hundreds of Economists, Scientists, Engineers, Major/Minor Suppliers, Major/Minor Manufacturers, and Major/Minor Distributors both Echaini and Japanese that make up the “Academy City Initiative” lead by Governor Gollvieg"

OOC: ...

View user profile
Also the fact that it makes Aberisk a god compared to us...

View user profile
Governor Grifenknight wrote:Also the fact that it makes Aberisk a god compared to us...

Not so Governor Grifenknight. For one thing this treaty will help promote growth across all Regions. It is a mutually beneficial trade. Also, Aberisk has no resources and people at all compared to the Rest of Echain. Scientific Advancement is the only way we can grow and survive.

Governor Grifenknight wrote:I mean... Your first statement is extremely bold.


I'm no madman, I hold no illusions that I, out of millions of people and experts is somehow qualified to make economic decisions by myself that would affect the lives of millions and even hundreds of millions of people. I will leave it up to the experts and my advisors on how we should make it happen. Like any sane leader, I set a Primary goal, I set smaller more achievable goals that would help us achieve the Primary Goal and the countless number of people that work in conjunction shall help us make that goal happen



Last edited by Governor Gollvieg on Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total

View user profile
Governor Gollvieg wrote:
Governor Grifenknight wrote:Also the fact that it makes Aberisk a god compared to us...

Not so Governor Grifenknight. For one thing this treaty will help promote growth across all Regions. It is a mutually beneficial trade. Also, Aberisk has no resources and people at all compared to the Rest of Echain. Scientific Advancement is the only way we can grow and survive.

Science expertise is in itself a resource. The treaty, as-is, does naturally place too much value in it, given it was supposedly written by scientists. The true problem of the treaty is its scope - to have such a binding documents with multiple diverse and different entities means interests of all will not be served fully.

Beauty of limited, bilateral treaties is that they eventually create the same outcome you are trying to achieve, but with much more flexibility, and, thus, profitability for both involved parties.

View user profile
While I see the points in the other Governors argumentation, I also have to say that I, personally, am of the opinion that the Treaty proposed by Governor Gollvieg has its upsides.
I even go a step further and say that for me the upsides are enough to see it as a positive.
Governor Gollvieg, though I do not see your treaty as perfect, the fact that we can withdraw at any time gives me enough security.

I , and with me Central, am willing to formally sign this treaty for the betterment of the Echaini people.

View user profile
I, too, see the upsides. And while the downsides give me pause, I know that we are in no position to sit on our laurels. I, Governor of Northport, formally sign this treaty for the betterment of the Echaini people.

View user profile
I too am seeing the appeal of TACTIC, but am also cautious of its implication and understand the worries from other governors about becoming dependent on Aberisk by joining this co-operation. As I see it, TACTIC as it stands right now seems to be focused on advising and guiding government officials in streamlining the provincial economies. I understand (although do not necessarily share) that people can perceive this as highminded arrogance on part of Aberisk's academia. I also see the risk of some economic systems or governmental agencies becoming reliant on 'foreign' advisors. I would therefore like to propose that the focus of TACTIC will shift closer to actual transfer of knowledge, i.e. training of administrators and middle managers or helping setting up trade schools. The Aberiskian academia would better serve the Echaini economy in the capacity of teachers rather than advisors. This would create a more sustainable system that would actually improve the self-reliance of the provincial economies. Seeing how our economies and our world as a whole is increasing in complexity, and advistory work will certainly remain important (especially within the higher echelons), I believe Aberisk's role within TACTIC will not diminish over time.

Secondly, TACTIC is currently set up so that knowledge is flowing in one direction. While I will not question the experise of the Aberiskian academia, this mechanic still largely ignores the large sources of practical knowledge that people in the field and on the ground entail. Without discussing and exchanging theory and practice, or debating new throughs versus age-old practical methods, TACTIC will be seen by many as ivory tower intellectualism.

I would like to heard governor Gollveig's thoughs on these matters.

View user profile
Cecasander wrote:I too am seeing the appeal of TACTIC, but am also cautious of its implication and understand the worries from other governors about becoming dependent on Aberisk by joining this co-operation. As I see it, TACTIC as it stands right now seems to be focused on advising and guiding government officials in streamlining the provincial economies. I understand (although do not necessarily share) that people can perceive this as highminded arrogance on part of Aberisk's academia. I also see the risk of some economic systems or governmental agencies becoming reliant on 'foreign' advisors. I would therefore like to propose that the focus of TACTIC will shift closer to actual transfer of knowledge, i.e. training of administrators and middle managers or helping setting up trade schools. The Aberiskian academia would better serve the Echaini economy in the capacity of teachers rather than advisors. This would create a more sustainable system that would actually improve the self-reliance of the provincial economies. Seeing how our economies and our world as a whole is increasing in complexity, and advistory work will certainly remain important (especially within the higher echelons), I believe Aberisk's role within TACTIC will not diminish over time.

Secondly, TACTIC is currently set up so that knowledge is flowing in one direction. While I will not question the experise of the Aberiskian academia, this mechanic still largely ignores the large sources of practical knowledge that people in the field and on the ground entail. Without discussing and exchanging theory and practice, or debating new throughs versus age-old practical methods, TACTIC will be seen by many as ivory tower intellectualism.

I would like to heard governor Gollveig's thoughs on these matters.

I understand Governor Sander's Concern and I would like to explain:

TACTIC is not an advising program but an expertise matching system. Rather than the Initiative dictating what government policies and industries to build, they make it cheaper and easier to do. Let's take an example out of your policies. You wish to build a Coal Power Plant, now how do you go about doing so? If you go by yourself you have to use the current level of education and expertise of your Region, which while they might able to build a working coal plant, they might not have built it up-to-date, or the power plant has some flaws that make it lose a lot of power during transit. How do you know where is the highest quality supplier that would sell to you for cheap?

With TACTIC, surveyors, engineers, and city planners would be provided to you and they will serve to make your projects much cheaper to build while at the same time make it much more effective. More over, what would be the point of helping you build something you cannot use, maintain and repair on your own? The experts will stay on the project, training your people until you are self sufficient (In game Terms, they will be boosting your Science Growth until you have the needed amount to use it without Aberisk's help. Aberisk does not seek to subvert the decisions of the Governors but to make it more effective.

View user profile
Regarding TACTIC. I have one simple request before I'd be willing to join in this treaty. This patent office you are going to set up. I would prefer if we didn't. Far from encouraging innovation, it will only stifle it. If we are truly to be a forward looking society we must also be willing to look backwards and see that we stand on the shoulders of giants. Each invention is a mere iteration on another's work. Giving exclusive right to a single inventor of a technology is illegitimate when thousands of others contributed to that invention.

View user profile
On that point I'm a little unsure. We already had the Americans immediately steal some Echaini designs this month. How about a limited patent that would last only 3 years. That would be sufficient time to put into research of a replacement tech and after 3 years, others would be able to get a shot at making a better product.



Last edited by Governor Gollvieg on Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

View user profile
3 years seems reasonable enough for an entrepreneur to secure funding to start producing their invention.

I agree and will sign TACTIC.

View user profile
My analysis of TACTIC:

ad 1. - such sweeping measure is extremely damaging to our economy

ad 2. - we've not even decided how to set tariffs; depending on the method chosen, this article may even be illegal

ad 6. - Concentration of industry only exacerbates problems stemming from 1., and often concentration is damaging

ad 9. - This literally is beyond the scope of an optional treaty. Such patent office would only enforce their rules in treaty signatories

Overall, these parts show dangerous pride (in the ability of economists in Aberisk), and disregard for the Law and legislature in others. Both show the problems I already predicted for such sweeping and all-encompassing treaties - lack of focus will lead to all parties being diminished, rather than benefited.

And then there is once more the problem I am constantly fighting again and again - and that is impatience. It seems as though the Governors often have memory span of goldfish. There are several basic acts on the floor right now, some even touch areas addressed by TACTIC.
I do applaud Governor Gollvieg that at least his measure is not reactionary - we all have to think strategically, not hopping from issue to issue and playing policy whack-a-mole.

Now I ask whether anyone has any input on the actual discussion here - tariffs. If not, I move that we start voting on my proposal.

View user profile
I am sorry that we kind of high hacked this discussion.
Back to the tariffs; I am not happy at all with the fact that not every province will be treated equally.
As such I would love to abstain from voting on this proposal or to vote naye.

But I also see the truth in Mr. Clarys statments and as such will vote AYE for now.
Though I hope that this will not become a trend for future proposals.



Last edited by Governor Lorinbas on Tue Feb 14, 2017 3:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

View user profile
I vote Aye on Mr Felix's proposal.

View user profile
Although being on the verge of abstaining, I also like to vote in favor of the National Finances Act, it probably being the least bad outcome of the ordeal.



Last edited by Cecasander on Tue Feb 14, 2017 5:14 pm; edited 1 time in total

View user profile
I too vote AYE for Mr. Osegg's proposal

View user profile
What is Felix's proposal? Sorry for being out of the loop.

View user profile
Governor Grifenknight wrote:What is Felix's proposal?  Sorry for being out of the loop.
National Finances Act

View user profile
OOC: When are we going to do the first session of Ausgleich?

View user profile

View previous topic View next topic Back to top  Message [Page 2 of 2]

Go to page : Previous  1, 2

Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum