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Educational Guidelines Act

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1 Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:43 pm

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1eGb0Zyxt7f2wmlRZafO5CPwJEYxo_WdS70ukibJlxMM/edit?usp=sharing

This is the current system implemented in Lurem.(I swear if anyone brings up...)

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2 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:46 pm

Can you rewrite the Grades so that they are one line for one item. We are not using paper here and some phone OS resize the letter which screw up the page display

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3 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:46 pm

OOC: So.......hows Lurem?. Razz

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4 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:47 pm

Governor Gollvieg wrote:Can you rewrite the Grades so that they are one line for one item. We are not using paper here and some phone OS resize the letter which screw up the page display

Like that?

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5 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:48 pm

Governor Alexander wrote:OOC: So.......hows Lurem?. Razz

OOC: I immediately pull out a gun and shoot you in the head... Very Happy

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6 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:54 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:
Governor Gollvieg wrote:Can you rewrite the Grades so that they are one line for one item. We are not using paper here and some phone OS resize the letter which screw up the page display

Like that?

Thanks, you know, it would have been better if you waited until next cycle before proposin this bill, can you wait?

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7 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:56 pm

Its just open to discussion. It doesn't have to be finished this turn, but if necessary, I can postpone it. Sad Very Happy

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8 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 4:58 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Its just open to discussion.  It doesn't have to be finished this turn, but if necessary, I can postpone it. Sad Very Happy

Thanks, we need to handle something first.

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9 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:53 pm

I suggest we add one more year, a preparatory year to the start, and we set the age that children begin school at 6.

I also suggest that the age a child begins school is not based on what year they are born in, but the month. A child that is 4 years and 11 months old is vastly more developed than a 4 year old, but they would both be placed in the same class under your scheme. I suggest the cut-off date is placed out of sync with the school year so that the disparity is reduced down to at most 6 months.

I also personally believe only having two schools for these years would be better for the development of children. A primary school for grades prep to 6 and a secondary school for grades 7 to 12.

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10 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 8:58 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:I suggest we add one more year, a preparatory year to the start, and we set the age that children begin school at 6.

I also suggest that the age a child begins school is not based on what year they are born in, but the month. A child that is 4 years and 11 months old is vastly more developed than a 4 year old, but they would both be placed in the same class under your scheme. I suggest the cut-off date is placed out of sync with the school year so that the disparity is reduced down to at most 6 months.

I also personally believe only having two schools for these years would be better for the development of children. A primary school for grades prep to 6 and a secondary school for grades 7 to 12.


I must say I agree with Mr WhiskeyWhiskers.

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11 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:07 pm

Another benefit of reducing the number of schools to 2 is that it will be far easier to recruit teachers for middle years learning. No one wants to teach difficult students entering puberty. Allowing teachers to move between what years they teach more easily will reduce burnout and staff turnover.

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12 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:23 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:I suggest we add one more year, a preparatory year to the start, and we set the age that children begin school at 6.

I also suggest that the age a child begins school is not based on what year they are born in, but the month. A child that is 4 years and 11 months old is vastly more developed than a 4 year old, but they would both be placed in the same class under your scheme. I suggest the cut-off date is placed out of sync with the school year so that the disparity is reduced down to at most 6 months.

I also personally believe only having two schools for these years would be better for the development of children. A primary school for grades prep to 6 and a secondary school for grades 7 to 12.

To your first point, this is just a guideline so if you want a preparatory year, you can add it to your curriculum.  It shouldn't be necessary in this bill.

To your second point, I set the starting age at 5 because unlike other nations, we classify our adulthood at 17 years old.  Due to that fact, I made the starting age at 5 in order to make it possible for that individual to go into society when they reach adulthood instead of being stuck in a public school.  This is because once you reach adulthood, in this bill, you are allowed to leave the public educational system and with the current grade-age system we have in this bill, there should be no problem with that.  However, if we bump it up a year, it would lead to many students dropping out in 12th grade.  A possible solution, if we bump it up a year, is getting rid of one grade, but I doubt that is necessary.

To your third point, I have dealt with this issue personally. I believe there should be no problem with having students that are younger than some of the other students. It allows them to develop their minds sooner and, I know from experience, that they tend to flourish and blossom sooner and better than the older students. This gap wont effect their ability to learn and the possible development gap between the ages disappears after only a few years until, usually, the younger student surpasses the older one.

If anything, we can benefit from this. Due to their younger ages, these students tend to develop intellectually more than physically while the older students tend to do the opposite. This can only lead to good things in the future.

OOC: I dealt with this issue perfectly fine as well as many of my colleagues when we were children.  Some of us, including me, were almost a full year younger than the other students.  However, we had no issue in primary school and actually ended up much better intelligence wise than the other individuals that were a full year older than us.

To your fourth point, the problem with only having two schools is the risk of exposing young and innocent minds to the upperclassmen.  Do we really want 10 and 11 year olds hanging around individuals 4-5 years older than them.  Especially with the fact that most of these kids will be going through puberty and in their "wild stages", I doubt it would be good for the younger minds.

You must, also, remember that these are guidelines, not necessary requirements.

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13 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:23 pm

Also, we should postpone this discussion for next turn.

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14 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:28 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:

To your fourth point, the problem with only having two schools is the risk of exposing young and innocent minds to the upperclassmen.  Do we really want 10 and 11 year olds hanging around individuals 4-5 years older than them.  Especially with the fact that most of these kids will be going through puberty and in their "wild stages", I doubt it would be good for the younger minds.

You must, also, remember that these are guidelines, not necessary requirements.


OOC: On the fourth point I live in the UK and there is only two levels of school: Primary and Secondary. From personal experience this is not really a thing and having older students with the younger students does little to either group and besides most age groups stick together anyway, when I was 11 I stuck with the friends from Primary school and hardly ever talked to the older students. Plus having only two levels REALLY helps with teacher shortages which are a big thing in the UK right now.

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15 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:30 pm

OOC: Eh, it was just a response because i really dont want to fix the bill. Very Happy

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16 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:32 pm

OOC: Its done...

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17 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:34 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:OOC:  Its done...


OOC: With the added changes I can in good faith edit it this post because Grifen pointed out something that should be obvious to me.



Last edited by Governor Alexander on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:39 pm; edited 1 time in total

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18 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:37 pm

I only changed the bits about the fourth point. I still haven't seen any arguments for the other ones. Very Happy

Again, I think we should leave this to later...

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19 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:39 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:I only changed the bits about the fourth point.  I still haven't seen any arguments for the other ones. Very Happy

Again, I think we should leave this to later...

There I have made an edit of my own. Very Happy

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20 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:45 pm

I am against imposing education standards through the Council. Constitution clearly states curricular minimum, and leaves the matter of education explicitly to the Regions.

I will not debate the proposal itself; I am not an expert on the matter. But I do believe that the national government does not have, nor is it supposed to have, powers we'd prescribe it by eroding the jurisdiction of the Regions by expanding National jurisdiction.

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21 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 9:58 pm

No where does it state that the national government cannot establish a nation-wide standard of education. If anything, you can bring the same argument about the minimum wage as it states in the constitution that anything not stated in the constitution is under the jurisdiction of the regions, but nobody cares when it doesn't support their views.

If this bill gets struck down because of the constitution, then I expect the striking down of the minimum wage bill as well.

OOC: Thank you so much Felix. Very Happy

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22 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:07 pm

There have been three recent issues concerning division of power.

First was the issue of tariffs on international trade. This is a Constitutional grey area, as the National government has jurisdiction over foreign relations and trade, but it has very limited (and under current system defunct) powers of taxation (it does not posses authority to levy tariffs).
This was solved with a comrpomise in the National Finances Act.

Second is the question of minimum wage. Now I must admit I failed in that question; I am used to implementing policy, not making it, and thus my first contribution to the debate was strictly in terms of how should such a measure be implemented.
But make no mistake - I am against a nationally set minimum wage. In fact, I am against any minimum wage.
However, much like the first issue, Constitution contains little guidelines in the matter, although you could argue it does speak against National government when giving Regions right to pursue their own economic systems.

Now we are at the third similar case, but, for once, the Constitution is quite clear on the issue. It explicitly gives the Regions powers over education, with exception of the Constitution itself. Currently, it contains a necessary minimal curriculum, which all Regions must follow; everything else is up to them.

This means this act goes against the word and the spirit of the Constitution itself. The only way to give such powers to the National government, and to legally implement the measures suggested, is to change the Constitution itself, and even that might be legally impossible, as it could be argued such change would go against the word of the Preamble, which itself cannot be changed.

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23 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:10 pm

Technically the delineation of powers is no longer an issue. It was written when the national senate was separate from the council of governors.

Any bill that is now found to overstep the powers granted to the national government simply means that it only applies to regions who consent to the bill. As such I don't believe that discussing the issue is outside the bounds of this chamber. As long as bills are clearly presented as being by consent only.

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24 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:12 pm

I agree with Felix here. This act, in its very nature, goes against the regions because it takes away its autonomy to establish its own educational system.

Also, in the constitution, it states that any matter not stated in the constitution is under the jurisdiction of the regions. That makes the minimum wage bill unconstitutional. I will bring this up in the discussion.

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25 Re: Educational Guidelines Act on Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:17 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Technically the delineation of powers is no longer an issue. It was written when the national senate was separate from the council of governors.

Now any bill that is found to overstep the powers granted to the national government it simply means that it only applies to regions who consent to the bill. As such I don't believe that discussing the issue is outside the bounds of this chamber. As long as bills are clearly presented as being by consent only.

There you are once more outright wrong, as I've come to expect from a simpleton like you.

Your assessment of the Constitution is simply false. Council of Governors was part of the National Government, and, even with dissolution of the Senate, remains a part of it.

And your second argument is outright dangerous. First, never has it been mentioned that this would work as an optional measure; it has been presented to the Council as a bill, and has been discussed as such. This means, if we extend your reasoning, that all laws, whether they passed or not, must therefore be optional, at which point we have no National Government.

Last, I'd like to address your irresponsibility. The Council has many important duties and pressing issues; it has no time for frivolous and, ultimately, moot debate.

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