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Discussion - Alliance of Oceanic Independent Nations

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Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:Whiskers, you still did not address the contradiction in your argument - why is Australia's good relations with USA a threat, but alliance between Mao and Soviets somehow isn't?

I also detest your reliance on collective and historic guilt. Especially after what just happened to the refugees, and how you railed against racism, to sum up a nation as naught but "genocidal imperialists" is exactly they - despicable racism.

It's not racism, Australians right now are removing half-caste children from their parents and raising them instead in missions.

Because Stalin is a mad man and no alliance with him will hold. However if that is a red line for other governors, I will withdraw my suggestion of the PRC, and instead suggest the KMT.



Last edited by Governor WhiskeyWhiskers on Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:12 am; edited 1 time in total

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Well, all the Japanese exploited Echaini in labour camps by that logic, Whiskers.

Gollvieg, I'd just like to add how it almost amuses me how fast you are (not just you, Gollvieg) to turn against me, yet ignore the actions of other Governor's.

OOC: Was the Aborigine child kidnappings programme public and widely known at the time?

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We are not entering into an alliance with the people of Australia, but the government. The government of Japan and the Government of Australia should both be held accountable for their genocidal actions, and I can't believe I have to make this distinction clear to you.

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Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:OOC: Was the Aborigine child kidnappings programme public and widely known at the time?

OOC: It was public, it's at least possible for my character to be aware of it. He'd be pretty ahead of his time in calling it a genocide though, but it fits in with my character's politics and anti-imperialism.

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Then we cannot enter alliance with either KMT or Mao. Or Indonesian freedom fighters. Or those in Africa.

These are their internal matters, and do not inform their society to significant degree. Furthermore, we could much easier attempt to remedy the situation, if we first find common ground with Australian government.

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Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:Whiskers, you still did not address the contradiction in your argument - why is Australia's good relations with USA a threat, but alliance between Mao and Soviets somehow isn't?

I also detest your reliance on collective and historic guilt. Especially after what just happened to the refugees, and how you railed against racism, to sum up a nation as naught but "genocidal imperialists" is exactly they - despicable racism.

It's not racism, Australians right now are removing half-caste children from their parents and raising them instead in missions.

Governor WW, please do not start arguing with Felix again, Also I agree with you that this is despicable but the fact of the matter is that right now we are very limited in our range of influence. The farthest we can go with our "Navy" is Indonesia and we are not powerful enough to swing the war in China either way. Indonesia will not deal with us unless we deal with the Japanese Freedom Fighters. The sad thing is the Australians represent the most powerful military in Oceania and we would be remiss if we did not even consider talking with them.

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Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:Then we cannot enter alliance with either KMT or Mao. Or Indonesian freedom fighters. Or those in Africa.

These are their internal matters, and do not inform their society to significant degree. Furthermore, we could much easier attempt to remedy the situation, if we first find common ground with Australian government.

Explain your reasoning. I'm not following.

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Does KMT, Mao, or any freedom fighter force not participate in acts heinous and reprehensible?

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Australia sees Southern Europeans as sub-human, our own people would not be welcome travelling to Australia. They see their continent as the 'white' man's paradise. It's a terrible idea trusting them.

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Give me evidence then. Why would they be interested in an alliance, if we are considered subhuman? Never mind that huge portion of Echaini comes from Germans or even Irish and English.

Once more, you've not answered my argument and moved to another, no less misguided, Whiskers.

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They likely desire trade and a partly white outpost in the Pacific.

OOC:Once more I've pressed submit after you've posted.

I am not aware of any acts of genocide committed by the Indonesians, or the Chinese. So no, none that rise to the standard of heinousness of those committed by Australia.

OOC:And just in case you're not actually aware until 1947 this is official policy. Only British immigrants.

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Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:They likely desire trade and a partly white outpost in the Pacific.

OOC:Once more I've pressed submit after you've posted.

I am not aware of any acts of genocide committed by the Indonesians, or the Chinese. So no, none that rise to the standard of heinousness of those committed by Australia.

Gollvieg sighs and begin listing off the long, long, long list of Chinese acts of Genocide which includes the 75 Kingdoms that they destroyed and wiped off the face of the world (whose surviving language they claim to be dialects despite not sounding anything near Mandarin or Cantonese). The 8 attempts to wipe out the people they call the Southern Barbarians (Viet = Barbarian, Nam = South) in the last 2 thousands years. The puppet state of Korea and so on.

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To add to it, every armed struggle for independence brings with same old horrors of war, and results in tensions, same as we experienced here.

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Governor Gollvieg wrote:Gollvieg sighs and begin listing off the long, long, long list of Chinese acts of Genocide which includes the 75 Kingdoms that they destroyed and wiped off the face of the world (whose surviving language they claim to be dialects despite not sounding anything near Mandarin or Cantonese). The 8 attempts to wipe out the people they call the Southern Barbarians (Viet = Barbarian, Nam = South) in the last 2 thousands years. The puppet state of Korea and so on.

True, but I am talking of contemporary and ongoing genocides whose perpetrators are still alive. I would not hold the current British government accountable for the Bengal famine of 1770, but I will hold them accountable for the Bengal famine of 1943, a genocidal act of neglect.

I find it disgusting Felix that you would attempt to minimise genocide in such a way. We are all aware war is hell, and terrible things happen during it, some of us more than others. But in keeping with international law, genocide is a special category of warcrime far and above worse than simple fighting.

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The you can seek to prosecute Australia for such genocide. But, from what I know of the issue, it isn't full genocide, and falls more into area of systemic racism - and those seeking freedom from colonial masters always seek retribution as well, meaning they, too, engage in such behaviour.

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If Stalin's forced removal of Tatars from Crimea is genocide, the abduction of Aboriginal children is too.

And you'll have to enlighten me on the cases of Aboriginals abducting white children and ethnicly cleansing Australia for land.



Last edited by Governor WhiskeyWhiskers on Sat Feb 25, 2017 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total

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Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
Governor Gollvieg wrote:Gollvieg sighs and begin listing off the long, long, long list of Chinese acts of Genocide which includes the 75 Kingdoms that they destroyed and wiped off the face of the world (whose surviving language they claim to be dialects despite not sounding anything near Mandarin or Cantonese). The 8 attempts to wipe out the people they call the Southern Barbarians (Viet = Barbarian, Nam = South) in the last 2 thousands years. The puppet state of Korea and so on.

True, but I am talking of contemporary and ongoing genocides whose perpetrators are still alive. I would not hold the current British government accountable for the Bengal famine of 1770, but I will hold them accountable for the Bengal famine of 1943, a genocidal act of neglect.

I find it disgusting Felix that you would attempt to minimise genocide in such a way. We are all aware war is hell, and terrible things happen during it, some of us more than others. But in keeping with international law, genocide is a special category of warcrime far and above worse than simple fighting.

*under his breathe* Not in Asia...

"The hate the continent has for the Chinese is completely based around the hate the Chinese has for the continent. The moment they are no longer an existential threat to the people, is the moment the call for their extinction will end."

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Fine if China is not on the table, then what about India?

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Was the USSR formally charged with genocide? Was it convicted?

And then - that would mean we are no less guilty of the crime. If you believe there is any independence movement not seeking to harm their oppressors - and thus, based on your definition, participating in genocide - you are far too naive to dictate foreign policy for a nation of 4 million.

Again, I urge you to heed Governor Gollvieg's notes on Asian culture and history, in which he as a native has far greater knowledge and understanding.

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Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Fine if China is not on the table, then what about India?

Who here does not want our single Destroyer to fight against the second most powerful Navy in the world?

o/

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No. Because international law is a tool of the victors. If the Nazis had won would their genocide not have been a genocide simply because they wouldn't charge and find themselves guilty?

Based on what part of my definition would we have committed genocide?

I am sorry Felix, but I believe you are the only non-native of Asia here.

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Governor Gollvieg wrote:Who here does not want our single Destroyer to fight against the second most powerful Navy in the world?

o/
Did Echain get involved when Lorinbas and I were on different sides in Spain? No. We can send volunteers and covert support.

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Did we not drive the Japanese of the island? Did Lurem not participate in fanning the flames of racism under governor TomRP?

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Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:No. Because international law is a tool of the victors. If the Nazis had won would their genocide not have been a genocide simply because they wouldn't charge and find themselves guilty?

Based on what part of my definition would we have committed genocide?

I am sorry Felix, but I believe you are the only non-native of Asia here.

WW, as someone who is not Echaini born I would like to ask the question, how is it that the people of Echain aka the Dragon's Teeth, aka the Islands of Death. Not know the state of the world merely 1000 miles away from them?

*glares at Lore*

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I would like to request at maximum 20 minutes to craft a comprehensive rebuke.

OOC: See, in the lore I wrote, I specifically made Echain extremely isolacionistic and insignificant, thus explaining that. Also, the reason I made Echain uninhabited is precisely so we don't have the aborigine issue (which would, 90%, be over the line).

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