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Discussion - Alliance of Oceanic Independent Nations

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Are you attempting to say that the Aboriginals are invaders on Australian soil and are an occupying force?

We drove the Japanese army off our island. Many Japanese-Echaini here long before the occupation were welcome to stay. It was in no way an act of genocide.

As for Lurem's actions, yes I would consider that genocidal. And I know I won't be working with TomRP ever again. The same stance I take with Australia and any other genocidal power.

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Governor Gollvieg wrote:
WW, as someone who is not Echaini born I would like to ask the question, how is it that the people of Echain aka the Dragon's Teeth, aka the Islands of Death. Not know the state of the world merely 1000 miles away from them?

*glares at Lore*

Sorry I don't understand the question.

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We drove Japanese off the island now. I'm referring to the refugees. And I know you did not agree to TomRP's actions, yet they happened but few months ago (and for you, up to 4 years means recent enough), and it was an action of the Government. Or does it mean if one official disagrees with Australian policy, then everything's fine and dandy?

Again, I ask for time to write my rebuke. I'd appreciate if you gave it to me, and in the meantime, cool off while eating some delicious pastries our hosts in Central prepared.

OOC: Avoids confrontation, right? Very Happy



Last edited by Felix Clary zu Osegg on Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
Governor Gollvieg wrote:
WW, as someone who is not Echaini born I would like to ask the question, how is it that the people of Echain aka the Dragon's Teeth, aka the Islands of Death. Not know the state of the world merely 1000 miles away from them?

*glares at Lore*

Sorry I don't understand the question.

Totally IC:I find that for a nation that is extremely close to the Philippines, Indonesia and Papa New Guinea, the Echaini are very strangely European and I have yet met an Echaini who is aware of their fearsome reputation with the locals.



Last edited by Governor Gollvieg on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:42 am; edited 1 time in total

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OOC: Aren't Australians just as European? Also, please, please let me write my piece in peace. I'd extend the same courtesy to you, and I ask for but 30 minutes.

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Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:OOC: Aren't Australians just as European? Also, please, please let me write my piece in peace. I'd extend the same courtesy to you, and I ask for but 30 minutes.

OOC: Okay

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Yes, the Falklands of the Pacific.

And just, because I don't believe it's fair to leave it hanging; if the government of Australia and several other states sent troops to stop the genocidal actions of one state, I would not consider the government genocidal, merely the state that was committing the crime. As they are instead all complicit, the blame still rests with them all.

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The problem with your argument, Governor Whiskers, goes far deeper.

To base foreign policy primarily on issues of morality and ethics is foolish and dangerous.
First, we are to represent the best interest of our people, not that of other countries. We should place the good of our constituents above the good of others, as it is our people who lend us their strength, not Australian Aborigines or Crimean Tatars.
Second, what is moral? What is ethical? I acted completely ethically and morally during the Occupation, yet some decry me as traitor and collaborator. Who is wrong, then? Who is right? Basing foreign policy on morality, then, is akin to basing it on a throw of dice, perhaps worse.

For the elaboration on the second point. From my limited knowledge, Australia's education policy is far from genocide, and, in fact, seems to hold some promise of progress. And even then, By shunning Australia, we'd also shun people who have nothing to do with the policy - people who are innocent.
Then, I believe, even if moral issues were a sensible linchpin of foreign policy, I'd see nothing that would preclude an alliance with Australia.

Now, this was a proper session, which it isn't; it's barely more than an informal meeting, I would ban this line of debate already.
I'll explain this to stop... some to call me a tyrant abusing powers of the Foreman. I won't explaining similar actions in that much detail later, but the reasoning will be the same.
Now we should account actions of a foreign government to their own people, as it shows how much we can trust our prospective partners, yet you failed to present the issue in this light, Governor Whiskers.

Debate serves two purposes. Bringing specific parts of the issue to light - so as to make it visible to those who did not yet consider it - and to try and change other's minds.
First purpose was served, as both parties had ample time to make their point.
Second is also moot. You are simply not persuasive to sway my opinion, Whiskers, and, on the other hand, you are a known political extremist, and to enter discussion with you intending to change your mind leads, as I came to know from personal experience, to certain disappointment; the only reason I do debate with you is so that my opposition is known and explained, if it exists.




OOC: A bit for Gollvieg disappointment with Echaini "European-ness" and to explain what and why I write. We're here playing characters. Felix, for example, is a white aristocrat from Europe, who was grown to believe the "Mission to Civilise" ethos. In his mind, fight for freedom in Indonesia, for example, is essentially "graduation", and now Echain must "finish the job". So, all things considered, Australian policy for Aborigines would seem sensible and benevolent to him. After all, they're merely making sure children are raised well fed and educated, right?

I feel like, and I know this is probably unfair criticism and I fully expect to get a lot of flack for this, most other players do not "act" a role per say. They go in more as themselves, or craft characters with roughly their morality. Like, for example, someone who plays Witcher 3 and gets horrified by the crappiness from real world morality perspective, and someone who responds as someone from that universe.

There's an episode of DS9, where Sisko and Bashir get time-travelled to time when unemployed and mentally ill got placed into Sanctuaries - lawless crappy areas - and were treated like cattle. Bashir is constantly almost sick of what's happening, but Sisko is stoic - he, as a "student of history" (direct quote from the episode, I believe) knows what these places were, and is less overt and quick to judge them.
In the episode, he eventually takes place of a historical figure responsible for starting the end of Sanctuaries (and, I believe, transition to Earth-utopia in ST). I am Sisko in this.

(as a side-note, it would be interesting if Sisko actually had to become the "bad guy" to ensure history progresses as it should.)

Now granted, my level of... insertion? is more than most people would be capable of (mentally); it's very much a symptom of my mental disease. But still, I think sometimes you (general you; in my language, we have different singular and plural "you" - so convenient!) are taking it too far.
Just go see the Crisis just now. I'd honestly expect at least one governor would be racist, but it wasn't in my character for other reasons (well, Felix is racist, but of a different variety).

Now to Gollvieg. Echain is European, culturally, because the GM and most players are culturally European. You can only play, and act, that which you know.



Last edited by Felix Clary zu Osegg on Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:47 am; edited 3 times in total

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OOC: You don't have to read the OOC bit. It's mostly just a rant Very Happy also, I won't be on my PC for an hour or two (lunch, yay!)

Oh, and I forgot one part of my IC argument, that we wouldn't have any prospective allies with such stringent criteria. My fault Sad if you want to put it forth, Gollvieg, you can. I think it would be an IC argument for you.
Also, Gollvieg, sorry for my speech being all flowery and such. But, at least, I hope it enriches your English as well, as you enriched my knowledge about historico-cultural relations and racism in east Asia!

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OOC:I totally get where you are coming from with people playing themselves as their character, and that's why I made this character for the tutorial game, so I could get it out of my system and play a different character when we got to the actual one. But when the switchover happened, I was invested in the character and so kept him.

What disgusting prattle. Your style of politics would see us allied with the monsters we just put down. But if we must play at realpolitik, setting ourselves up as the moral leader of an unalligned league of nations would give us a great amount of sway. If we were to point out and denounce criminal acts anytime we saw them, regardless of who committed them, we would get for ourselves a reputation for honesty and fairness. That reputation would allow us to project power far greater than any warship or jet engine we could ever field.

As for your collaboration with those who committed genocide during the occupation, I think my already stated views speak for themselves on why I believe you acted unethically.



Last edited by Governor WhiskeyWhiskers on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:07 am; edited 1 time in total

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The matter of "genocide" aside, I think just for pragmatic reasons Australia can be considered a logical ally for simple geographical and  cultural reasons. I also do think that we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves or do we already know to what degrees exactly the Australians want to cooperate?

OOC: I do try to play a character but I have to be honest I find it hard sometimes to really separate between my own views and the views of my character. I try to play a character who is a product of his time (Aristocrat, Monarchist,....), so, as a person who lived some time in Australia I know how horrible the "Lost Generation" Issue was there, but my Character would probably have no really problem with it, which is hard to show I guess.

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OOC: I suppose if it really bothers Gollvieg that much I could Q-Snap Echain into the Atlantic instead of the Pacific and change a couple of names around and still have it fit. But no I'm with Karbin on this; expecting full cultural shift in player characters from players is, frankly, unfeasible. It's also probably why so many players are playing characters who are originally from places other than Echain.

...and, without wishing to spoil, it makes perfect sense that Echain does not act like a typical Asiatic culture.


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A somewhat smaller unassuming man who's been observing the open debate from the distance raises his hand politely. "If I can, sirs and gentlefolk?" After a moment's pause he continues. "I am not here to place judgement upon leaders to say what's good and moral, each of us chooses that as people. But it feels to me the important part of this debate would be as to whether or not we could help the people of Australia by allying with its government. Applying political and economic pressures to force morally disgusting acts to discontinue. Or offer aid to those affected by them." A pause. "Isn't it our jobs, as leaders, to try to help the people?"

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Then we're better off applying pressure from outside, attempting to tar their name and apply pressure on others not to do business with them.

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Do we have the trust of Australian people? Did they lend their power to us? Did they grant us legitimacy to act in their name?

The answer to these questions is a resounding 'no'.

Furthermore, from I know - and if Governor Whiskers has other information, I implore him to disclose his sources - the policy in question isn't genocidal or malevolent.
Even if it's application is wrong, I wholeheartedly believe it was enacted with the best of intentions, in which case, we'd be better able to remedy it from a position of friendship.

Remember that others do improper things of similar magnitude as well (including Echain), meaning we'd have to entirely isolate ourselves.

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The Australians consider the Aboriginal to be a dying species who will eventually disappear from their land. They intend to accelerate this by removing their children's connection to their culture and their parents. 

It is only benevolent in the same sense the euthanisation of disabled people was considered by the Nazis to be benevolent. That is, only from a twisted world view that places no interest in the rights of the individual.

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Give me a source for this, please. As it stands, it's mere conjecture.

As I see it, they are helping children from impoverished families who cannot care for them properly. Families in which children face hunger and often bleak future due to lack of education - families which, unintentionally, participate in child abuse.
It is right that the government steps in and ensures these children are taken care of properly, and even provides good education.

Besides, morality of this policy is not the issue. But, the fact we can debate it, shows why we cannot base foreign policy predominantly on internal policies of the prospective partner.

Also, you again failed to address my point, which was - what nation can we ally ourselves with, if Australia is out of consideration for the reason you present.

OOC: I am putting myself on the line here. This is IC. Judge it IC, not as people in 21st century, living in a society with strong postmodern characteristics.

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I suggest Indonesia should be our first target. The impediments to our alliance are small, and a war with Dutch colonial authorities shouldn't stretch our military too much.

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I will present my plans in a proper, closed and secret Session on the matter.

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OOC:And as for a source, are you actually asking for a source? Because I will look up contemporary documents to show this if I have to.

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OOC: If there is documentation from that time, then yes. But not if it's later date.

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I have to be honest, I am not the biggest fan of a military operation against the Dutch, as proposed by Whiskey, more for personal reasons if I have to say.

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OOC: please, discuss these things in private thread... Right now, were basically disclosing planning a military invasion Very Happy

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http://www.firstsources.info/uploads/3/4/5/4/34544232/australias_coloured_minority.pdf

It was published in 1947, but the guy who wrote it was the Chief Protector of Aborigines in Western Australia since 1915, and his views on the issue weren't exactly hidden. They wanted to biologically and culturally absorb the Aboriginals into the 'white race' through education and arranged marriage with white people.

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The Lorerunner wrote:OOC: I suppose if it really bothers Gollvieg that much I could Q-Snap Echain into the Atlantic instead of the Pacific and change a couple of names around and still have it fit.  But no I'm with Karbin on this; expecting full cultural shift in player characters from players is, frankly, unfeasible.  It's also probably why so many players are playing characters who are originally from places other than Echain.  

...and, without wishing to spoil, it makes perfect sense that Echain does not act like a typical Asiatic culture.

OOC: Oh I know that the GM and the players are Eurodecended so it makes perfect sense that that Echain would be European. It also makes sense why Echain would be so culturally resistant as WW pointed out earlier, the Falklands Islands situation is simialr to ours, and my head cannon makes Echain out to be the return of Yamatai, an ancient kingdom that terrorized all of Asia and was known in historical documents to be lead by a powerful Priestess Queen, who according to legend is able to resist all invasion using magic. Golivieg the Character is completely amazed that the first Echaini would willingly set foot into the land known as The Dragon's Teeth. While the native people of the continent is wary of contact with people who would violate the Land of the Dead



Last edited by Governor Gollvieg on Sat Feb 25, 2017 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total

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