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LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private]

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26 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:46 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:OOC:  I understand you want to expand the game, but we are only like 6 turns in...  This would never happen IC.  Can you name one nation ever that gained it's independence then 6 months later, attempted to start conquering or integrating other nations...

OOC: Just to name 2 off the top of my head.

People's Communist Republic of China

The People's Republic of Vietnam

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27 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:25 pm

OOC: I stand corrected. Nevermind, let's eat up those Indonesians. Very Happy

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28 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:29 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:OOC: I stand corrected.  Nevermind, let's eat up those Indonesians. Very Happy

OOC: TONIGHT WE DINE IN.........an island chain in the Pacific ocean. Very Happy

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29 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:38 pm

Assuming we do help in the liberation of Gracemeria, which side of the conflict are we going to attempt to influence? Sukarno or the PKI? Sukarno's nationalists have much stronger ties to Japan than the communists have to any outside power.

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30 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:46 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:Assuming we do help in the liberation of Gracemeria, which side of the conflict are we going to attempt to influence? Sukarno or the PKI? Sukarno's nationalists have much stronger ties to Japan than the communists have to any outside power.

Sukarno is more easily malleable, he fears his position of power more than anything else and we can use that against him.

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31 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:50 pm

If we are thinking of integrating the islands into Echain, the communists would give us more support of the people. It is the single largest communist party in the world. 

The choice to me seems to be between whether we want to keep the same structure in place and have an ally, or whether we cut off the head and place the communist party into power as governors. As you say, Sukarno is worried about his position, he will not want to step down and surrender any amount of independence. The communists I believe could be agreeable to a more subordinate position.

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32 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:51 pm

OOC: You know I just realised something, the British are there in Indonesia helping the Dutch.

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33 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:53 pm

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:If we are thinking of integrating the islands into Echain, the communists would give us more support of the people. It is the single largest communist party in the world. 

The choice to me seems to be between whether we want to keep the same structure in place and have an ally, or whether we cut off the head and place the communist party into power as governors. As you say, Sukarno is worried about his position, he will not want to step down and surrender any amount of independence. The communists I believe could be agreeable to a more subordinate position.

Why would a Party dedicated to the peoples revolution in any way concede anything to Echain?, a Communist Party in charge of Indonesia could also be our undoing in the region as I imagine the Soviet Union would be in there immediately with a guarantee of independence and their joining of the Warsaw Pact.

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34 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:55 pm

Well, I for one do not want to give the communists any power. Even if they join us, the pain and suffering that they would cause is not justifiable.

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35 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:58 pm

Why would a nationalist agree to subordinate his country to another nation?

The people's revolution does not care about arbitrary national boundaries. Plainsdale itself would show that we are not hostile to experiments in socialism being allowed to prosper unmolested.

And what is stopping the Soviet Union from supporting Sukarno? The USSR is not shy of supporting nationalist causes it believes can guide countries through capitalism and into socialism, as per Marx's historical materialism.

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36 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 8:59 pm

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Well, I for one do not want to give the communists any power.  Even if they join us, the pain and suffering that they would cause is not justifiable.
OOC:Ironic given the way history actually progresses.

And I could say the same for any Nationalist given the horrors we witnessed performed by them in the war.

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37 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:24 pm

Do not forget that our primary objective is to expand our global influence and prevent both the Soviets and the US from encroaching on Echain. The Nationalist would not want to join either blocs and if we are to support the PK, we will need to divorce them from the USSR and fight the US

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38 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:34 pm

As Alexander points out, Sukarno is willing to work with anyone to secure his nation's independence. We will be sidelined as soon as we are of less use to him than the US or USSR.

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39 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:01 am

Just like we would be sidelined by the communists if the USSR assisted them.

That is why we should go after the nationalists. There is less of a chance of interference while if we assist the communists, the chances of USSR interference is much greater.

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40 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:58 am

Governor Grifenknight wrote:Just like we would be sidelined by the communists if the USSR assisted them.

That is why we should go after the nationalists.  There is less of a chance of interference while if we assist the communists, the chances of USSR interference is much greater.

Untrue. The Soviet's stated goals are for Indonesia to enter into talks with the Dutch government and to simply work towards more autonomy. The PKI is on less than friendly terms with the Soviets due to their calls for complete independence. We have to act soon. If we leave it too long the Soviets will either get an ally in the Nationalists who are more in line with them on negotiations, or the communists who share their ideology. The Soviets are in no way more disposed to choose the PKI as their ally.

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41 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:03 am

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:
Governor Grifenknight wrote:Just like we would be sidelined by the communists if the USSR assisted them.

That is why we should go after the nationalists.  There is less of a chance of interference while if we assist the communists, the chances of USSR interference is much greater.

Untrue. The Soviet's stated goals are for Indonesia to enter into talks with the Dutch government and to simply work towards more autonomy. The PKI is on less than friendly terms with the Soviets due to their calls for complete independence. We have to act soon. If we leave it too long the Soviets will either get an ally in the Nationalists who are more in line with them on negotiations, or the communists who share their ideology. The Soviets are in no way more disposed to choose the PKI as their ally.

WW is correct, we cannot afford to dally when it comes to Gracemeria. As for who I support, I would have to go for Sukarno. He is a very powerful political figure and further more we have the most information on him while we have nearly no information on the PKI. If we can give him a third choice that does not involve the Soviets or the US he could be a powerful ally. The second choice would involve years of bloodshed and factionalization.

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42 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:06 am

I doubt the soviets will leave them just because they wished for independence instead of autonomy.  The second they gain their independence, which isn't far off, the USSR will jump at the opportunity to gain another socialist ally and expand their sphere of influence.

I, also, doubt that the nationalists and the soviets would ally with each other just because they have more in common concerning their negotiations...

I agree that we should not dally as well, but we must decide who we support and I am heavily in favor of Sakarno currently.

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43 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:07 am

I vote Sukarno.

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44 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:09 am

Governor Grifenknight wrote:I doubt the soviets will leave them just because they wished for independence instead of autonomy.  The second they gain their independence, which isn't far off, the USSR will jump at the opportunity to gain another socialist ally and expand their sphere of influence.

I, also, doubt that the nationalists and the soviets would ally with each other just because they have more in common concerning their negotiations...

I agree that we should not dally as well, but we must decide who we support and I am heavily in favor of Sakarno currently.

The you know nothing of the Soviets or how they act. They are not interested in ideology, or even in Gracemeria. Gracemeria is simply a pawn in their game, for being embarrassed in the UN over their handling of Iran. They wish to do the same to the British. They will back Sukarno to the hilt. If we don't want our alliance, or dominion, to slip from our grasp the only options are the communists or the Islamic fighters.

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45 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:14 am

Even if Gracemeria is just a pawn in their game, I won't let tyrants and murders, also known as the PKI, take over the nation...
Even if our alliance fails.

I vote in favor of Sakarno.

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46 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:17 am

What exactly have the PKI done to warrant such accusations?

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47 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:21 am

There is a third option. We could covertly deploy parts of Darpon on Flores, Papua and Sundas - smaller and easternmost islands, less affected by the uprising, which focuses mainly on Java, Sumatra, and Kalimantan.
We could then create a third faction in this territory, with the intent being they'd split off of greater Indonesia; perhaps even join Echain.

I do not trust either the communists or Sukorno to foster democracy and value of liberty, should they gain power.

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48 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:23 am

And I will not be party to a blatantly colonial act. It is one thing to harness a national liberation movement and guide their development, it is another to be the aggressor in a war of annexation.

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49 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:24 am

There's someone advocating for a "war of annexation" here?

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50 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:26 am

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:with the intent being they'd split off of greater Indonesia; perhaps even join Echain.

You wish to use our mercenaries to annex territory, correct?

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