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LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private]

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51 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:29 am

No. Please, for future reference, try not to jump to conclusions before even reading one's proposal.

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52 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:32 am

Then explain yourself. Because to my mind there is no other way of interpreting what you have just suggested.

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53 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:44 am

Governor WhiskeyWhiskers wrote:And I will not be party to a blatantly colonial act. It is one thing to harness a national liberation movement and guide their development, it is another to be the aggressor in a war of annexation.

Sending Darpon makes sense. We should, and can, do more to help than with words, and we cannot afford to send substantial material aid.
As I said, I do not trust either revolutionary party to promote democracy and freedom, and, thus, I do not think we should support either of them.

Thus, the only possible recourse is to create a third faction. Sadly, we lack resources to create a truly comparable force to the others; our chance lies in focusing on smaller regions, underserved by current leaders of the fight.

Then, with the support and trust we gain, we should seek to establish these areas as nation, or nations, separate from the rest of Indonesia. We'll be in a position where we can, as you put it, "guide their development". And yes, if they so wish, I see no reason they couldn't become part of Echain as new Regions.

In fact, thinking this not to be a possibility is a show of your "colonial mindset", Whiskers.

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54 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:49 am

Hmmm, I think it might be wise to send our DoI into Gracemeria first in order to gather information on the factions. Meanwhile, I think a shipment of Food to Gracemeria's most critically food starved Region would go a long way toward good relations with the Partisans. Also, what is everyone's opinion of the Freedom Fighters? Should we have anything to do with them? Despite their birthplace they are truly dedicated to Gracemerian Independence

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55 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:50 am

I would support Felix if it wasn't for the massive risks and backlash. This would be an extremely dangerous move, but a profitable one.

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56 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:52 am

And what do you base your distrust of their ability to create a democracy on? In addition, if we are intending on adding Gracemeria as a set of regions, then their ability to craft a democracy is largely irrelevant, we already have one.

I don't raise any objection to the use of Darpon mercenaries in this, but if we are to create a third faction we cannot start it with an invasion. Material and political support for those regions would be far better suited for the purposes of creating a faction sympathetic to us.

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57 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 1:56 am

We can distance ourselves from Darpon quite easily. Of course, if another party would be determined, they could accuse us and attack us, but the Dutch are hardly capable of doing so, and the new Indonesia will have its own troubles, enough so that we could remedy relations.

However, by making sure at least part of Indonesia develops well, we severely weaken a potential foe, and gain a great ally in the process.

Besides, we had our share of bad luck. It's about time something goes well for us.

As for you, Whiskers. Sukorno is building a cult of personality around him, and leads as a dictator. Communists, well, they've never been ones for democracy or freedom.
You also fail to understand that you cannot simply impose democracy on people. They need to want it, and they need to have a basic understanding of how it works.

And obviously, we would first contact local people, before sending in Darpon.

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58 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:02 am

What nonsense. A dedicated communist and democrat stands before you right now. Your patronising paternalism is premature. They are in the middle of a war, many democratic governments enacted strict wartime measures on their population, it's base hypocrisy to assume either side is incapable of democratic decision making.

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59 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:06 am

Of course, I forgot ho democratic Lenin was. Or Mao. Or Marx. If you are a democrat, you cannot be a communist, as democracy id antithetical to the writings of Marx.

As for Sukarno, he never did anything which would make me doubt he is but another tyrant, just not Dutch one.

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60 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:11 am

Not in the slightest. It is antithetical to the writings of Lenin. Marx himself thought highly of the Paris Commune for instance, thinking it a clear example of a worker's state. Then you have others such as Tolstoy and Kropotkin and Bakunin. All communists, all firm believers in democracy and even against the state itself. The regional assemblies themselves are styled on the Soviets that were later purged by the Bolsheviks.

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61 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:24 am

Democracy, true and full democracy, means democracy for all. Not a violent revolution proselytised by Marx.
And, to be honest, I do not think you a democrat. Democrat does not advocate beating and violating innocent people.

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62 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:28 am

Then no country on the planet is a democracy. There has been bloodshed across the world in the name of democracy, the American and French revolutions did not spring forth from a ballot at a salon.

And, to be honest, I do not think you a democrat. Democrat does not advocate beating and violating innocent people.

And yet you would send an army to a foreign shore to make sure they thought like you, all the same.

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63 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 2:59 am

Regardless of who we choose to back, any military action by Darpon would take at least one year to set up. They are European Soldiers and have yet adapted to Jungle Warfare conditions. The best they can do right now is fight in the cities. Otherwise we need to take into account Malaria, Jungle Fever, and any number of other diseases. We also need to take into account how we are going to supply Darpon.

All this and the logistics needed to send Aid will take many months. For now the best we can do is send in the DoI in order to scout and prepare for the main push.

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64 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:10 am

OOC: Well Darpon is pretty old and has traveled the world, so how exactly do we know what they do and don't know? Lore?

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65 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:16 am

Darpon should have been preparing itself if it came here. If they fail, we'll simply be in a better position relative to them.
As for supplies, the contract implies they are responsible with supplying themselves; it's included in their pay.

For Governor Whiskers: first, there is a difference between inciting and promoting violence against a vast group of people (sounds like racism, ey?) and collateral damage.
As for my intent to promote democracy, I do so knowing that democratic regimes are the only ones who actually have to care for their people, and that a democratic neighbour sharing our values is better than one that does not.

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66 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:32 am

At Felix "I understand that you do not have any military experience so I will endeavor to be patient with you. An army is not a rock, you can't throw them at something and expect results to happen. They are thinking people and if they think that you are callously sending them to their deaths they will come back and slit your throat and watch you bleed out.

Even if their contract states that they have to supply themselves, where the hell are they going to get ammo and food in the middle of nowhere? Once they run out of either we are back to being completely defenseless and ready to be exploited by everyone.

No, I would rather have effective and alive soldiers than dead ones and enemies at the gate. IF we choose to send Darpon, I will refuse to let them go without a fighting chance because to me, the honor one has for his employees is everything."

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67 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:37 am

You may think of them as employees, but for me, they are merely subcontractors. Foreign subcontractors.
Darpon came to us with an offer of certain services. Which means they must feel confident they are capable of providing said services as specified by the contract.
Should they prove unable to do so, then we would have every right to declare such contract null and void.

Also, Dutch are weak and concentrate on the big three islands; I expect little fighting to happen in targets I laid out - it is more a propaganda action than military one.

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68 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:37 am

I wish to state my support for Gollvieg here.
No matter our stance of Darpon, and believe me I am not a fan of them, I also would rather they go well prepared, if we send them at all. Our honour would demand that we treat Darpon as we would our real army in this matter.

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69 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:40 am

Darpon is not a real army, and their soldiers are not our citizen, and the operation is not really a military one.
If someone sold you oranges, but it were seeds, would you be happy with such trade?
Darpon promised a capable fighting force - not one which would need a year just to learn how to fight in local conditions.

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70 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:46 am

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:You may think of them as employees, but for me, they are merely subcontractors. Foreign subcontractors.
Darpon came to us with an offer of certain services. Which means they must feel confident they are capable of providing said services as specified by the contract.
Should they prove unable to do so, then we would have every right to declare such contract null and void.

Also, Dutch are weak and concentrate on the big three islands; I expect little fighting to happen in targets I laid out - it is more a propaganda action than military one.

And what information are you basing this on? Do you happen to have any connections we do not know about? We have no idea if it is the Dutch forces that are holding Gracemeria or it is the Brits or Americans. We have no idea of their troop composition, their location, their supply bases or what their military objectives are. You can't fight a war blind and you especially do not "create a third faction" factionization is exactly why the Echaini never stood a chance against the Occupiers and even if the Echaini united they stood no chance against the Imperial Navy because unlike the Echaini, the Japanese was adapted to fighting in Jungle Conditions. They would have wiped out all of us if they did not think that by being in so many different factions we would weaken ourselves into complete ineffectiveness.

Edit: The one year is not for them, it is for us. We still need to build ourselves up enough that we can even make a difference.

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71 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:29 am

Felix Clary zu Osegg wrote:
For Governor Whiskers: first, there is a difference between inciting and promoting violence against a vast group of people (sounds like racism, ey?) and collateral damage.

As for my intent to promote democracy, I do so knowing that democratic regimes are the only ones who actually have to care for their people, and that a democratic neighbour sharing our values is better than one that does not.

No matter how many times you say this, it will never become true. Please stop this childish approach. The methods I suggested we use were absolutely comparable to, and in many cases far less severe than, the methods used in the democracies of the world to break strikes.

And yet you do not believe that self-determination should be a factor in the democratic process. You are happy to create a sympathetic faction out of whole cloth. You are not even willing to allow these movements to prove themselves incapable of democracy. They crafted a parliamentary system from an originally presidential system, their democratic reform is clearly moving away from strongman, cult of personality style leadership.

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72 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:18 am

If someone kills a man, does it become alright to do the same, Whiskers?

As for my views on the Indonesian situation, you misread my point, which, admittedly, is my fault. So I will try and present it in full.

There are several factors which make me propose that it would be beneficial to create a third party in the independence struggle. After, all, I made clear that morality and condition of citizens of other countries cannot be allowed to dictate such policies.

I simply do not trust a unified Indonesia under the communists or Sukarno. Not just because of their politics - if that was the only reason, I could be persuaded to support helping Sukarno - but because Indonesia as a whole is incomparably bigger and richer than us.
They'd inevitably try to become the local hegemon, and in so doing, would limit our sovereignty. Our ability to do things for our people.

The fact I believe communist rule to be ruinous, and Sukarno to, even unintentionally, elevating himself to a position of a dictator is secondary to my main concern, which is for the people I represent here, people of Echain.

Now as for specifics, I am happy to leave that in hands less busy with other issues. Admittedly, I am not an expert on the matter; my point about sending Darpon now comes mainly from my instincts as a businessman - we have a very limited window of opportunity, and the contract signed guarantees Darpon's readiness to fight in local conditions, and to supply their forces properly.

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73 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:34 am

Stop being so melodramatic. I only suggested the police do a show of force, not murder.

Then don't allow a unified Indonesia. I suggest we work with locals across Indonesia and build self-governing regional assemblies. Create divides amongst all their islands. Attempt to destroy the Nationalist vision. Build a structure that will slot easily into our own.

The goal should not to be that of a vulture picking at a carcass, taking only the islands furthest from the conflict, but as the unifying power for all the disparate islands.

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74 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:35 am

While you are merely co-opting my idea and trying to pass it off as your own, I do commend you on seeing reason in my argument.

Now, as I said, please excuse me, I have other matters to attend to.

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75 Re: LIBERATION OF GRACEMERIA [Private] on Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:55 am

Watches Felix leave the room. "Damn it Felix, we are going to have to censor a lot of what he said in the public record. What is the point of having code words if one of us are going to announce out loud who we are talking about anyways...

Alright, we need to call both the DoI and the DoW to this forum in order to discuss the plan of action. Regardless of who we support the series of actions we are going to take is the same.

We have a choice between three options:

1) Use the Military+Darpon in a direct confrontation with the Empire.

2) Use Diplomacy to convince the Empire to leave without a fight.

3) Begin a campaign of strategic assassinations and espionage to hit key individuals who are critical for the Empire's ability to hold Gracemeria.

Which of these 3 are we going to do?



Last edited by Governor Gollvieg on Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total

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