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1 ========== on Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:31 am

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Last edited by Wethewax on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:15 am; edited 1 time in total

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2 Re: ========== on Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:44 am

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Last edited by Wethewax on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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3 Re: ========== on Sun Jul 05, 2015 6:17 pm

Kingdoms are good Empires are evil

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4 Re: ========== on Sun Jul 05, 2015 7:49 pm

nope.



Last edited by DeutscheKind on Wed Sep 02, 2015 5:11 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : expunging.)

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5 Re: ========== on Sun Jul 05, 2015 10:19 pm

Clowns are always evil?

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6 Re: ========== on Mon Jul 06, 2015 5:49 pm

This is more of a trope in fiction in general, but....: Usually something bad happens to the protagonist, and/or people close to the protagonist (usually in the beginning of the story). It can range from his family being murdered to his entire hometown being destroyed or even his town/country being invaded or conquered.

It's commonly used to
1: Give motivation (usually for justice/revenge)
2: Cut ties that would keep him at home and settled down so he can get involved in the story.

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"McGuffin" Magic Plot device objects. Examples such as the Crystals (FF games), Ring of power (LoTR), Infinity Stones/Tesseract (Marvel) that the antagonist and protagonist struggle to obtain or keep it from the other.

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Another trope is the protagonist that is magical, super-human, or otherwise has special abilities and is coincidentally the last of his kind (or close to the last of his kind).




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7 Re: ========== on Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:20 pm

There are a lot of annoying fantasy tropes out there (the "decline" of magic and "extinction" of elves/magical creatures/whatever, and so on) but the one trope that REALLY irritates me is how most fantasy stories involve people who don't have jobs.

"Adventurer" is not a job.

That's why I like the Locke Lamora books and more historical-fantasty stuff (like Cloud of Sparrows), because people who have to deal with real-world issues like money and trade are a lot more compelling than the typical D&D-party that only cares about "adventuring" to me.

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8 Re: ========== on Mon Jul 06, 2015 9:49 pm

Arsene Lupin wrote:There are a lot of annoying fantasy tropes out there (the "decline" of magic and "extinction" of elves/magical creatures/whatever, and so on) but the one trope that REALLY irritates me is how most fantasy stories involve people who don't have jobs.

"Adventurer" is not a job.

That's why I like the Locke Lamora books and more historical-fantasty stuff (like Cloud of Sparrows), because people who have to deal with real-world issues like money and trade are a lot more compelling than the typical D&D-party that only cares about "adventuring" to me.


From what I understand dungeon delving is pretty lucrative in most settings. Thats why Adventuring is typcally a high risk high reward discipline. The expedition into the deep roads in DA2 demostrates this. Being an Adventurer is not considered serious work cause how stupidly dangerous it is and as a result adventurers are a rare breed. Adventurering can translate to exploring, in a practical sense you could make good money mapping out places. Like Reily's Rangers in fallout 3, or Jori and Gav Daragon who made a living mapping out hyperspace routes in Tales of the Jedi. Or countless real world explorers.

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9 Re: ========== on Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:24 pm

That's a (flimsy) justification that works well enough for games, where dungeons/monsters are sufficiently numerous that it's possible to imagine a sustainable economy... but I was thinking more fantasy literature, wherein the average "adventure" basically just wanders around doing improbably exciting things.

The whole "adventurer" thing kind of goes hand-in-hand with the "untethered protagonist" trope (maybe there's a proper name for this: if there is, I don't know it). You know--heroes with no friends, no family, no obligations, etc., etc. They fulfill a juvenile power fantasy that just isn't interesting to me now that I'm no longer a teenager.

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10 Re: ========== on Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:16 am

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Last edited by Wethewax on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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11 Re: ========== on Tue Jul 07, 2015 1:16 pm

Wethewax wrote:Here's what I've come up with so far:

1: A two cornered conflict where the two sides are polar opposites and ordinary are people torn between them.

2: Good vs Evil. This usually goes hand in hand with the trope above.

3: The Hero's Journey.

4: The opposite of everything exists. IE: if evil dragons exist there must be good dragons somewhere, if water spirits exist there must be air spirits somewhere, etc, and so on.
1 and 4 (and I've debated with people who think 2 is applicable as well) are things GRRM is guilty of as well in 'A Song of Ice and Fire'.  After all, the title of the series is referring to the re-emerging conflict between The Other (who leads the White Walkers) and Rh'llor, the Lord of Light.

Number 3 is only a trope if you count its misuse by stupid people who don't understand it, and never bothered reading 'The Hero With a Thousand Faces'.  The Hero's Journey is literally just a construct conceived of by Joseph Campbell to get to the root of why stories were told in older societies.  It was a bunch of morons who turned it into a literary crutch, and don't know that many of the myths referenced by Campbell's work don't contain even half (let alone all) of the 'steps' of the diagram shown.

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12 Re: ========== on Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:27 pm

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Last edited by Wethewax on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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13 Re: ========== on Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:56 am

The only correct way to use the Hero's Journey is as an analytical tool. To use it as a story's structure is to misuse it.

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14 Re: ========== on Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:30 pm

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Last edited by Wethewax on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:16 am; edited 1 time in total

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15 Re: ========== on Fri Jul 10, 2015 5:38 pm

I am not sure if this is a trope but the whole "dark"= realistic is not really my thing. I find GRRM falling into this, or if not GRRM himself those who read him. I think Arch is right about fictional works: ask yourself if the world is worth saving. I suppose a critique of this is the idea that knowing the tipping point between redeemable and irredeemable is a hard to find line but for fiction I find it a good cut off. Also I hate the idea that the only kind of loss that is meaningful is death and that if the main character ends up "on the throne" then it is your traditional cliche fantasy. The Chronicles of Prydain are an excellent example of a story with an ending where you are not sure how to feel.

I get how the good vs. evil can be boring but that is only if not nuanced by those involved in the Battle. Without debating LOTR, Dragon Age has a clear G vs E but the characters and the other conflicts make that interesting.

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16 Re: ========== on Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:52 pm

Okay, I've remembered my real "most hated" Fantasy trope.

The "real world" characters.

You know the trope: where some shiftless nobody from our own reality gets magically transported to a fantasy realm.

Sometimes it works well. Miyuki Miyabe's Brave Story is fantastic, and probably the only story that actually manages to pull this off well. (Fun fact: Miyabe also wrote the Ico novel). (Yes, Narnia is great, but I think we can all agree that the best stories didn't have real-world characters in them, and the best characters were always Narnians--with the one exception of Silver Chair). It always, always, always cheapens the fantasy setting and feel condescending. It's like they do it to placate the horrendously dull, unimaginative folks who are simply incapable of understanding fiction.

(Should add that Magician's Nephew also handles the "real-world" stuff pretty well).

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17 Re: ========== on Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:03 am

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Last edited by Wethewax on Thu Sep 03, 2015 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total

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18 Re: ========== on Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:50 am

I think this is probably just a 'movie' thing, but I absolutely deplore the exact opposite of Arsene Lupin said. Instead of real-world people going to the fantasy land, its the fantasy characters coming to the real-world.

Two offenders of this I can think of right now is 'Masters of the Universe' and 'Smurfs'.

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19 Re: ========== on Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:28 pm

Yeah, that stinks, too.

But it's less disrespectful to the audience, I think.

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